Duck Dynasty: Some Clarity on Baptism

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I wrote A Few More Things You Should Know About Duck Dynasty when I found out these fellows belonged to a Church of Christ – White’s Ferry Road Church of Christ. That post documents a ministry from White’s Ferry, that trains people in evangelism, explaining that people should be re-baptized for salvation who claim, “I am already saved; I was saved when I believed in Jesus” or “Were baptized to show [they] had already been saved.”

I have had several conversations – online and off – on this topic. Several of my fellow Southern Baptists have concerns since the Duck Dynasty folks are publicly partnering with some Southern Baptists. Oddly, there has also been a large silence about what these folks believe about baptism, but there have been inquiries.

So, in an effort to clarify what White’s Ferry believes about baptism, Elder Mike Kellett recently addressed the issue due to many of those inquiries. Also, note that Duck Commander Phil Robertson and his oldest son, Alan, are Kellett’s fellow elders.

To begin, I’d like to share a few resources on baptism before I share a link to Mr. Kellett’s sermon. The first two links are from Southern Baptists while the second two are from Presbyterians.

Also, the Southern Baptist confession of faith, Baptist Faith and Message, states the following about baptism.

Christian baptism is the immersion of a believer in water in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It is an act of obedience symbolizing the believer’s faith in a crucified, buried, and risen Saviour, the believer’s death to sin, the burial of the old life, and the resurrection to walk in newness of life in Christ Jesus. It is a testimony to his faith in the final resurrection of the dead. Being a church ordinance, it is prerequisite to the privileges of church membership and to the Lord’s Supper.

Now, to Mr. Kellett’s sermon. You can find White’s Ferry’s sermons on their sermons page. The recent sermon where Kellett addressed baptism is The Comeback of the Spirit Filled Life – Part IV (click to stream or download). I want to note that he denies holding to baptismal regeneration, but he does not directly answer the question of whether baptism is necessary for salvation. I’ve made a few notes below, some of which seem to indicate that baptism is necessary for salvation. However, please listen to the entire sermon.

Kellett begins talking about the Great Commission on Matthew 28. He then moves to Acts 2:38, Galatians 3:26, Colossians 2:11-12 and Romans 6. He makes some good points about baptism in the sermon.

What changes peoples’ hearts is the gospel. Baptism is not the gospel. The story of Jesus is the gospel.

Agreed. Kellett then explains that when people hear the gospel, their heart is touched and they respond by repenting and being baptized for the forgiveness of sins. He points out that baptism is not replacing the gospel or working for salvation. Baptism is passive and we are submit to it.

Baptism is more than doctrinal because it connects you to God’s greatest command and his greatest message. And the result is you’re alive again…Baptism is more also than a response to grace it’s an experience of grace. We are only saved by grace. There is nothing in the water.

The power to save someone, as we said earlier, is in the gospel of Jesus Christ. And what He did is totally by grace. I do not deserve  it. Never have. Never will. I’m saved by grace through faith. It’s a gift of God. So I’m responding to that grace as well as experiencing it in baptism. It’s the new birth (garbled). Because if receiving the Holy Spirit isn’t an experience…if it’s just an intellectual agreement…boy, am I ever going to have trouble trying to live (faded out).

Kellett then explains that sin, shame, brokenness, pride, etc. are dealt with in baptism because it’s an experience of God’s grace.
White’s Ferry also does not hold that one must be baptized to be a member because “baptism is not membership, but relationship.” If you have obeyed the gospel and have been baptized, you are a member of God’s family. He is not about inspecting baptisms. He is also not about having perfect belief at one’s baptism.

As I understand Kellett, his position is that baptism is obeying the gospel which is where one is born again by the grace of God. Below are a few more quotes that further explain baptism as it relates to the new birth.

Baptism is not the finish line, but the starting line. It’s new birth. You see, there’s a lot of growth that’s going to take place. Baptism is that new birth. The born again of the water and spirit. And so this happens by God’s grace and now we’re going to grow in that grace and we’re going to learn to become like Jesus.

Now look…if you think all of a sudden that you know my…and I realize I sinned, I messed up, I…I…I need to be baptized. I want to run down there because I want to be baptized. I know if I’m baptized everything in my life will get better.

Well, I got news for you. Look, it makes your…it makes eternal life in good shape. Your past is taken care of. Your going to have help for the present. You’ve got a future for you hopefully, but look. Look. Baptism cleanse you from your sin, but baptism doesn’t drown the devil. Got it?

For this Baptist, it is hard to get my mind around that someone must be baptized to experience the new birth in Christ. It is difficult to understand someone saying salvation is by grace through faith, but you must be baptized to be born again. A similar issue sometimes seemingly found in some Baptist circles would be telling someone they are saved by grace through faith, but they must say a sinner’s prayer to be saved.

At the moment, I’m very uncomfortable with the above issues. They trouble me and are clearly outside the lines of Southern Baptist doctrine which in includes justification by faith alone. Part of my issue is that I came out of RLDS (a sect of Mormonism for lack of a better term). So, adding anything to faith in response to the gospel pricks my heart.

I am not saying that the Church of Christ and/or Duck Dynasty folks cannot be Christians; that, I cannot ultimately know. I do have a difficult time reconciling what seems are two different paths to being born again. For example, in a typical Baptist church, whether Calvinistic, Arminian or other, the gospel is proclaimed for unbelievers present to repent and believe in Jesus. Upon that repentance and belief one is welcomed to the family of God. However, as I understand Mr. Kellett’s explanation, one must repent, believe and be baptized before being welcomed to the family of God.

A final question comes to mind as a Southern Baptist: Why should Southern Baptists partner with and promote the Christianity of the Duck Dynasty/Church of Christ folks?

Here I blog….

Mark

P.S. My observations are not condemnations. I’m open to discuss how these two theologies are reconcilable and/or how I am misunderstanding Kellett on baptism et al.

Let's connect!

tagged as , , , , , , , , , in apologetics,Christianity,Church Issues,Gospel,heresy,Southern Baptist,theology

{ 72 comments… read them below or add one }

1 HaitiOrphanProj May 14, 2013 at 2:25 pm

Mark I appreciate this. I’ve bever watched the show but have heard a lot about it from friends. And being from LA (Lower Alabama) I think I can say, “I know those guys!” since I do know many like them (I’ve seen commercials for the show).
We who believe that paedobaptism is legitimate (we as in PCA folks) can hearitly agree with your concerns and also reject baptismal regeneration. I noticed your two links to paedobaptisis.
I would be unable to partner with them, from what I know, in gospel efforts and surely could not refer anyone to their church.
Les

2 HaitiOrphanProj May 14, 2013 at 2:36 pm

One more thing. Growing up in small town Alabama, and knowing of the one C of C in town, they all seem like pretty good folks. The minister took his turn to write innocuous articles for the local weekly newspaper. Lots of “good ol’ boys and girls” in the church. Their kids played sports with us, etc. All got along “real good.”
I can tell you that back then, and I doubt much has changed, the rank and file in the pew of the evangelical churches mostly had no clue what the C of C believes and just assumed they were just another good church down the road. Hope that has changed.

3 Arie May 14, 2013 at 8:25 pm

Personally, I don’t think it is necessary to be “baptised” in order to receive the gift of salvation. If I am not mistaken, Jesus in the Bible frequently told people tothe effect of “go in peace and to sin no more”… he didn’t say, but wait… “I need to dunk you in some water first”. Saying that, I respect the ceremony of baptism and would be willing to be re-baptised myself but this really underscores the point that various sects will never fully agree on doctrine aka “religious beliefs”.  As quoted by Mark, for the Church of Christ you can’t even attain membership or the Lord’s Supper  without baptism first. All Christians will only be able to fully agree on spiritual values, they will never fully agree on doctrine since personality is a unique gift from God and we all have different intellectual viewpoints.

4 Mark Lamprecht May 14, 2013 at 9:10 pm

HaitiOrphanProj Thanks for the comments, Les. I’m glad at least one person sees my point and understands it. 🙂

5 Mark Lamprecht May 14, 2013 at 9:11 pm

@Arie There will be doctrinal division in certain areas until the Lord comes back; I’m sure. As a Protestant though, I think I am on pretty firm ground to say that we agree together with the doctrine of sola fide and would reject baptism as necessary for salvation.

6 Stephen May 15, 2013 at 11:49 am

I would ask for a little more theological clarification from Kellett about the nature of conversion, but is there a major ecclesiological distinction between their practices and those of more conservative baptist churches? I’m thinking of 9 Marks types, close the front door of the church but open the back door. Arie said that in CoC a non-baptized person cannot be a church member or participate in Lord’s Supper. Is this not true in Baptist churches also? You directly quoted the BF&M in the post: “Being a church ordinance, [baptism] is prerequisite to the privileges of church membership and to the Lord’s Supper.” 
One thing that CoC has going for them is that in the New Testament there does not seem to exist an un-baptized convert.

7 Mark Lamprecht May 15, 2013 at 2:20 pm

@Stephen What if I told you my concerns about what Kellett teaches about baptism have been undoubtedly confirmed?

8 ShawneleShawSurplus May 15, 2013 at 5:49 pm

“For this Baptist, it is hard to get my mind around that someone must be
baptized to experience the new birth in Christ. It is difficult to
understand someone saying salvation is by grace through faith, but you
must be baptized to be born again.”
2 Corinthians 5:17~ Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
Galatians 3:27 ~  for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
Romans 6:4 ~ We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order
that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the
Father, we too may live a new life.
Seems to me that it’s downright Scriptural.

9 r phillips May 17, 2013 at 10:56 am

Mark, Ephesians 4:5 states there is only one baptism for the New Covenant Christian.
We know by reading the conversions in Acts that immersion in water was
practiced by New Covenant Christians. We know the baptism of the Holy
Spirit was only seen twice: once in Acts 2 (apostles) and again in Acts 10, 11
(household of Cornelius) and was accompanied by miraculous signs such as speaking in tongues. It also was not for salvation because it fell upon people who were already saved in both accounts.
Therefore, the one baptism for the New Covenant Christian is ones physical immersion in water.
Explain Romans 6:3-6, 1 Peter 3:21, Colossians 2:12, Galations 3:27, et
al. under the faith only doctrine without changing the context to make
it a “spiritual baptism” rather than a physical immersion in water. You
can’t do it! The issue is twofold: the incorrect categorization of
baptism as “works” (Col 2:12 describes baptism as being raised by faith through the working of GOD) and the incorrect interpretation of baptism as being a
spiritual baptism apart from ones immersion in water. The events are
simultaneous. The bible says we are saved by faith, but it never says we
are saved by faith alone. You are adding that to the verses you quote,
whether intentionally or not, to make it say something it doesn’t. Read
through the conversions in Acts. If it were a “public proclamation of
faith” as many baptists say that it is… then why were these converts
baptized immediately? Sometimes in the middle of the night? They did not
wait a month for “baptism Sunday” they did not wait to invite their
friends and family. They did not even wait to do it before the whole
church. They did it immediately, as soon as they understood and believed
the message, with a sense or urgency. Paul was also still in his sins
after meeting Jesus on the road to Damascus and was ordered three days
later to “be baptized for the forgiveness of [his] sins, calling on His name”. If he were saved
by faith alone his sins should have been forgiven the moment he
believed on the road to Damascus. Alas, he was still in his sins three days later (also without the Holy Spirit as we see in Acts 9).

The baptist you quoted says this: “Christian baptism is the immersion of a believer in water in the name of
the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It is an act of obedience
symbolizing the believer’s faith in a crucified, buried, and risen
Saviour, the believer’s death to sin, the burial of the old life, and
the resurrection to walk in newness of life in Christ Jesus. It is a
testimony to his faith in the final resurrection of the dead.”
The bible, on the other hand, says this: “Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin.”
Baptism is not a symbol of this having already happened to the believer, the bible clearly states baptism is WHEN this happened to the believer. Buried into his death, dead to sin, raised to walk in newness of life… through Christian baptism! Baptism is not the WHAT that saves you, that is clearly Jesus’ blood and God’s grace, but the bible couldn’t be more clear that it is, in fact, the WHEN.

10 Poolman May 18, 2013 at 12:19 pm

John 3:5 is undeniable clear on the absolute necessity of baptism and yet “so called Christians”, try to teach that baptism is not necessary! Perfect example of why the scriptures are not for “private” interpretation !

11 Starla Harrison May 18, 2013 at 4:05 pm

My husband was raised in the Church of Christ. We attended, together, Churches of Christ of various stripes for the first 30 of our 32 yr marriage. We now attend First Baptist Church, Garland, Tx. We have been ’round & ’round this mulberry bush for YEARS between ouraelves and with other people. The bottom line is this :  he & I are botrh convinced that people have made a mountain out of a molehill re: this topic. There simply is NOT that much difference.  Satan uses these arguments to divide Christians and weaken the power of the body of Christ as a whole in this country.  We Christians, all, need each other now, more than ever.  People in the Church of Christ do NOT believe that being dunked is what saves a person. They believe that their faith is expressed through their willingness to obey in Baptism, and that faith is the saving power. Believe me, this argument is splitting hairs. I am thrilled that there is a Christian voice in Duck Dynasty. I am praying now as I type, that there can be unity among Christians, and all uf us will support our Christian brothers and sisters on Duck Dynasty. From what I’ve heard from my international missionary friends all over the world, there is not inter-denominational Christian bickering on the mission field. They support each other and work together to further the Kingdom.  Respectfully and prayerfully,  Star**

12 Unitysoldier June 18, 2013 at 12:14 am

Your last sentence says it ALL.   You said:”A final question comes to mind as a Southern Baptist: Why should Southern Baptists partner with and promote the Christianity of the Duck Dynasty/Church of Christ folks?  This entire article appears to be geared toward its bottom line- that all about drawing petty denominational lines and creating DIVISION in  THE BODY OF CHRIST.  How narrow minded. How about we quit majoring on the minors and just do the Great Commission (Matthew 28:19-20,  and let God be the one who decides who is saved. This  is downright petty! It is what turns the world off to Christianity. Come on, “Why should Southern Baptists partner with and promote the Christianity of the Duck Dynasty/Church of Christ folks?” How about we quit this petty arguing and in spite of our doctrinal differences we UNITE together and spend our time spreading the Gospel instead of arguing about it.

13 Mark Lamprecht June 18, 2013 at 12:35 am

Unitysoldier Did you read my first post that documents that the very church I am writing about would not accept my profession of faith? How can I unite with them if they would not accept me (and all Protestants) as brothers and sisters on the basis of our confession of faith alone? Are you willing to say that White’s Ferry is being petty? Causing disunity?

14 Unitysoldier June 18, 2013 at 12:45 am

You sound angry! Maybe you should just forgive them, get over the rejection and move on. Love overcomes a multitude of sins.

15 Mark Lamprecht June 18, 2013 at 9:55 am

Unitysoldier You are my most awesome commenter since you can hear my thoughts. 😉 
All I asked was for you to hold White’s Ferry to the same standards as you attempted to hold me to – no anger. White’s Ferry published their material antagonistic to Protestant beliefs long before I knew they existed. While love covers a multitude of sins it does not cover graciously warning others of false doctrine. 
Yet, love also seeks the best of others so you probably should have sought to comment in love first assuming I had the best of intentions while also being more informed about the situation. Thanks for dropping by.

16 r phillips June 19, 2013 at 11:09 am

UnitysoldierA bigger problem I see both with his statements and with the mentality of most denominational people at large is that he clearly sees himself as a “Southern Baptist” rather than as a “Christian”. We are not called to identify ourselves with or follow the teachings of man-made organizations we are called to be followers of CHRIST and follow only what the BIBLE says. The bible says that it is baptism, that is immersion in water, that clothes us in Christ, forgives us of our sins, raises us to walk in newness of life, gives us the gift of the Holy Spirit, saves us, etc etc etc.
As I previously stated below: “Baptism is not a symbol of this having already happened to the
believer, the bible clearly states baptism is WHEN this happened to the
believer. Buried into his death, dead to sin, raised to walk in newness
of life… through Christian baptism! Baptism is not the WHAT that saves
you, that is clearly Jesus’ blood and God’s grace, but the bible
couldn’t be more clear that it is, in fact, the WHEN”
Yes we are saved by grace through faith. But the bible is very clear that this salvation by grace through faith takes place during your submission to the waters of baptism…

17 Mark Lamprecht June 19, 2013 at 11:17 am

r phillips Unitysoldier Wrong! I see myself as a Christian who happens to be Southern Baptist. It is unfair of you to characterize my position that way. Church of Christ churches may not consider themselves denominational, but their actions speak otherwise. I.e. When is the last time a Church of Christ church planted a non-denominational church? How about a church that did not have “Church of Christ” as its identity?
The reason I addressed Southern Baptists on this issue is because some of us are giving Duck Dynasty a platform and should know their church’s doctrine.

18 r phillips June 19, 2013 at 11:32 am

Mark Lamprechtr phillipsUnitysoldierWell I’ve seen several of your blog posts on this topic and you are constantly talking about the Southern Baptist Church and how these positions don’t match up to that doctrine. Not once have you mentioned concern that it doesn’t match up to biblical doctrine, just your Southern Baptist doctrine.

I happen to be a member of a Christian Church not a “Church of Christ” but the doctrines taught by Churches of Christ are typically consistent with what I believe and the doctrinal principles found in the bible. No matter how you lay it out, not one person in the bible was ever baptized as a “symbol they have already been saved”. I think my previous comment lays it out pretty well if you care to look about two or three comments down and read it. In fact, read the first half of Romans 6 and tell me you can honestly say the BIBLE teaches baptism is a symbol of what has already happened since Romans 6 says baptism unites us with Christ in our death and raises us to walk in newness of life. And no, not  a spiritual immersion (exclusively), this chapter is referring to Christian baptism, that is physical immersion in water.

19 dwpoyner June 19, 2013 at 11:35 am

Mark Lamprecht I think of the thief on the cross hanging beside Jesus. He said “today you will be with me in paradise.” Unless Jesus has extraordinary amounts of saliva, this thief was never baptized.  Why would I question the validity of Jesus’ proclamation of salvation?  I’m with you on this issue.
To respond to above comments, saying you believe salvation is by grace alone through faith alone while requiring baptism is a clear contradiction within itself. As r phillips said above “Baptism is not the WHAT that saves you, that is clearly Jesus’ blood and God’s grace, but the bible couldn’t be more clear that it is, in fact, the WHEN.”  That doesn’t work. If your baptism is required and is in fact your moment of salvation that you cannot experience without baptism, you have a works based salvation. If baptism is grace imparting, then you are, in some way, working for your faith. This makes a liar out of Christ himself on the cross. 
The reason Southern Baptists require baptism before partaking of the Lord’s Supper and in church membership is not a salvation/grace imparting belief. It is an obedience issue. We believe that we are commanded to be baptized if we are able as an act of obedience to God’s command. If you’re simply refusing to be baptized in a SBC church, you’re refusing obedience to God’s Word and we take that seriously.

20 r phillips June 19, 2013 at 12:12 pm

dwpoynerMark Lamprechtr phillips 
Colossians 2:12 “having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.” Baptism is a work of God NOT of us. It is completely passive/submissive on our part and is the moment which he decided to grant us eternal life, forgiveness of sins, the gift of the Holy Spirit, and so forth as seen in Acts 2:38, 1 Peter 3:21, Roms 6:3-6 and several other places in scripture. 
Reading Romans 6 we find that baptism is when we are buried with Christ in his death. Baptism became a part of salvation upon the implementation of the New Covenant, that is, after Christ died and rose again. Therefore, the manner in which the thief on the cross came to salvation is in no way relevant to us since we no longer live under the Old Covenant but rather the new. If you want to use someones story of salvation as an example to follow take the Apostle Paul. He met Jesus on the road to Damascus and immediately believed. He spent three days fasting and praying before he was commanded to be baptized for the forgiveness of his sins. If we are saved by faith alone the moment we believe, why was he commanded to be baptized for the forgiveness of his sins? Why was he still in his at all three days after initial belief??

21 ShawneleShawSurplus June 19, 2013 at 1:35 pm

Mark Lamprecht you write, “Wrong! I see myself as a Christian who happens to be Southern Baptist.
It is unfair of you to characterize my position that way.”
 Yet you also have written, in this blog post, ” At the moment, I’m very uncomfortable with the above issues. They
trouble me and are clearly outside the lines of Southern Baptist
doctrine which in includes justification by faith alone.”
and “For example, in a typical Baptist church, whether Calvinistic, Arminian
or other, the gospel is proclaimed for unbelievers present to repent and
believe in Jesus.”
and “For this Baptist, it is hard to get my mind around that someone must be baptized to experience the new birth in Christ.”
and “A final question comes to mind as a Southern Baptist: Why should
Southern Baptists partner with and promote the Christianity of the Duck
Dynasty/Church of Christ folks?”
It very much appears, as r phillips said, that your emphasis is on your standing within a denomination, rather than as a Christian.

22 dwpoyner June 19, 2013 at 1:50 pm

r phillips Mark Lamprecht My apologies. I didn’t mean to put words in your mouth.  I must have jumbled multiple arguments together. But while we’re on the subject, How do you then deal with passages like Romans 5:1-2 where Paul says we are “justified by faith” and through Christ “we have obtained access by faith into the grace in which we stand?”  Baptism is not as stated a part of that process.  Yes, Paul points frequently to baptism, but I think you put to much grace imparting power in baptism.  Yes, we certainly advocate baptism as a key part of the sanctification process, but not justification. Being buried with Christ is a public affirmation of your intentions to be obedient to the commands of God.  It identifies us with Christ as a testimony to the Gospel in what he has done for us. Just like we believe the Lord’s Supper is a testimony of what God has done for us, baptism is much the same thing. In Romans 6:11, Paul says, “So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.” It is identification, not justification.  Again, it is an issue of disobedience if one would willingly and knowingly refuse baptism. That is why we require it for justification. If you will not submit to being identified with Christ in this public way, you have not truly submitted to the commands of God. I do not believe the scripture in any way links baptism with an imparting of grace.

23 Mark Lamprecht June 19, 2013 at 1:55 pm

ShawneleShawSurplusr phillips The problem is that I don’t see the tension between being a Christian and what my denomination professes. You all are trying to quote mine and make the two opposed to one another. Plus, when I say “Baptist” that does not necessarily mean “Southern Baptist.” 
You also neglected my following words which give greater clarity on the context in which I am writing.
“Several of my fellow Southern Baptists have concerns since the Duck
Dynasty folks are publicly partnering with some Southern Baptists.” 
I even quoted two Presbyterians which you conveniently did not mention. I am writing as a Christian who happens to be Southern Baptist who is warning other Southern Baptists due to silence and/or ignorance among us as some of us promote Duck Dynasty in our churches. I can’t understand why this does not make sense.

24 r phillips June 19, 2013 at 2:47 pm

Mark Lamprecht ShawneleShawSurplus r phillips What you’re saying makes sense, but it doesn’t make the mindset right. I don’t understand why anyone finds it acceptable to identify themselves as anything other than a Christian. Just a Christian. Any other identification is giving at least some of your loyalty to a man-made organization and subjecting yourself to their teachings and opinions.
I would also still like to encourage you to read Romans chapter 6, specifically the first half, with an honest and open mind leaving behind any previous doctrine you’ve ever been taught. Read it as if you’re reading the bible for the first time. You’ll see very clearly that many things happen simultaneously with ones baptism such as you becoming dead to sin and raised to walk in newness of life. It doesn’t say baptism is a public symbol that those things have already taken place. It clearly defines baptism as the moment that transformation took place. 
Of all of the conversions in Acts where is tells the manner is which the converts were baptized it was always immediate with a sense of urgency. They did it the moment they accepted the message, even if it was in the middle of the night. If baptism were meant to be a public proclamation then these people should have waited to be baptized before the whole church – maybe even invited some friends and family to watch (much like the way it is done in many baptist churches) but they didn’t treat baptism that way because it has nothing to do with making your commitment publicly known. And never has the bible ever defined it that way or treated it that way. It’s defined as the moment we are forgiven of our sins, clothed in Christ, raised to walk in newness of life, given the gift of the Holy Spirit, and also saved, among others. And in the verses that these things are mentioned in connection with baptism never is it mentioned in a way which would indicate these things having already taken place but rather as being simultaneous with ones baptism.

25 ShawneleShawSurplus June 19, 2013 at 4:29 pm

Mark Lamprecht ShawneleShawSurplus r phillips  Mark, I guess I think it makes sense if one thinks that such divisions within the Body of Christ are appropriate.  I don’t find that in Scripture.  In fact, I find Paul railing against that in his 1st letter to the Corinthians (chapter 3).  Either those of your denomination and those of the churches of Christ are all within the realm of “Christian” – in which case, these divisions are inappropriate (especially asking why one group of Christians should partner with another group of Christians) – or, one or both of you are not within the realm of “Christian”.  In that case, clinging to denominational creeds is the last thing I would want to be doing.
In the end, we are judged by the word of God – not any denomination’s doctrine.
That is all I was trying to say.

26 Mark Lamprecht June 19, 2013 at 5:05 pm

ShawneleShawSurplus But you’re missing the point that White’s Ferry is dividing the Body by not accepting my profession of faith as well as all Protestants who adhere to sola fide. Do you have a problem with their position?

27 ShawneleShawSurplus June 19, 2013 at 9:33 pm

Mark Lamprecht Hi Mark – I don’t see that as your point in this post.  I do believe that you have made that point in the comment section – but that was after the parts of the post that I mentioned in my comments.  Your point in the post does not appear to be that White’s Ferry is dividing the Body – but that their doctrines are incompatible with those of the Southern Baptists.
That said – on to your question…  I could not find their statement of belief at the White’s Ferry website – or anything that says who they accept, etc…  However, I am very familiar with the churches of Christ and if what you mean is that they believe that one is not remitted of sins, clothed in Christ, or raised to walk in newness of life until they have been baptized – then, no, I do not have a problem with that position.  If you mean that they believe that “sola fide” is “another gospel” (Galatians 1:8) – then, no, I do not have a problem with that position.  If you mean that they should accept your doctrines as equally valid with their own – then I would ask why that would bother you when you do not hold their doctrine on salvation to be biblical.
 In my prior comment I said that either: 1. your doctrines and that of the churches of Christ are within the realm of Christianity and – if so – the divisiveness that is in your post and that you have seen from White’s Ferry is inappropriate OR 2. one or both of the doctrines do not fall within the realm of Christianity – and, in that case, the last thing either of you should be holding on to tightly is your denominational creed.  What I saw in your post (I am not sure I’ve read all of the comments – at one point I was up to date…but I’m not sure that is still true) IS holding up man-made doctrine/creeds above Scripture.  The concluding paragraphs were all about how Southern Baptist doctrines are at odds with some Scriptures on baptism.  If my doctrines didn’t jive with some straight talk on baptism in the Word – I’d be reconsidering my doctrine – not shooting the messengers at White’s Ferry.  
I imagine on this we would agree: it’s hard to know where the Body of Christ ends and something else begins.  Most of the time, I don’t think that’s my problem – God sorts out the wheat and the tares later.  However, when we’re talking salvation – then, of course, it gets important to all of us to figure out where the line is – in the event we need to “teach the way more accurately.”  I guess that is why we are told to “work out [our] own salvation with fear and trembling.”  God bless your studies – God bless all of us as we dig into the Word.

28 Lynn Mac August 12, 2013 at 5:46 pm

The above article says “Southern Baptist doctrine which includes justification by faith alone.”
Yet Southern Baptist doctrine does not determine how one is saved….the bible does. Nowhere did Jesus Christ ever teach “belief only” saves. In Jn 3:16 Jesus said he that believeth should not perish (be saved). Jesus never said he that believeth ONLY. Adding the word “only” to the verse perverts the verse and you no longer have what Christ said but a perversion of what He said. Just as Jesus made belief essential to not perishing in Jn 3:16 Jesus likewise made repentance of equal importance and necessity to not perishing,Lk 13:3,5. The impenitent WILL BE LOST, will perish, see also Rom 2:4,5. So all the “belief only” in the world cannot save a person who remains impenitent. Therefore a biblcal belief that saved must INCLUDE repentance, so a ‘belief only’ that is void of repentance will not, cannot save.
Jn 3:16—believeth>>>>>>>>>>>>>not perish/be saved
Lk 13:3,5–repent>>>>>>>>>>>>>>not perish/be saved

29 r phillips August 12, 2013 at 6:09 pm

Excellent point. The bible never, ever, ever says that faith saves by itself. In fact if you study the original Greek you will find that faith is an action word. It isn’t simply mental assent. Faith means to be convicted to the point of action. So basically when they tell someone they’ll be saved if they believe it means to hear and then respond to the message (which is not always explicitly stated).

30 Lynn Mac August 12, 2013 at 6:17 pm

r phillips
Exactly. 
In Mk 2:5 says Jesus “saw their faith”.
What was it that Jesus saw that is called “faith”?  The WORK those men did in removing the roof and lowering the sick man down to Jesus for Him to heal.  In this context faith is plainly called a work.
1 Thess 1:3 “….your work of faith…”
Eph 2:8 tells us the Ephesians were ‘saved through faith’.  1 Pet 3:21 Peter tells us ‘baptism doth also now save us’.
Eph 2:8——faith>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
1Pet3:21—baptism>>>>>>>>>>saves
Since there is just one way to be saved, no alternatives, then a saving biblical faith MUST include baptism.

31 Lynn Mac August 17, 2013 at 12:17 pm

http://www.lifeway.com/ArticleView?storeId=10054&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&article=ministry-evangelism-pastor-Teach-New-Believers-the-Importance-of-Baptism.
The above article states the following:5. Communicate the “why” of baptism
Emphasize such truths as:Obedience to Jesus’ command and exampleProclamation of Christ’s death, burial and resurrectionDesire to live a new life in ChristTestimony and witness to others of one’s faithIdentification with the local church
If one can be saved WITHOUT being water baptized and the above is true, then:
–One can be saved while in disobedience to Christ, while in sin doing unrighteousness, which is not biblically possible.
–One can be saved without burying the old man of sin and rising to walk in newness of life, which is not biblically possible.
–One can be saved while not desiring a new life “in Christ” which is not biblically possible.

32 LesProuty August 17, 2013 at 12:51 pm

Mark,
Interesting that Norm Miller at SBC Today is praising the show and the family. http://sbctoday.com/2013/08/16/of-god-biblical-marriage-and-duck-dynasty/
Norm says, “SBCToday applauds the Robertsons for their unabashed and unashamed commitment to Jesus Christ. Hallelujah for a family who has gained international attention by honoring the Savior. May their tribe increase.”
Safe to say SBC Today does not share your (and my) concerns.

33 CWR August 25, 2013 at 10:04 am

MY FAMILY DATES BACK OVER 100
YEARS WITH THE CHURCH OF CHRIST.  MY FATHER WAS AN ELDER, FOUNDER OF A
COLLEGE WHICH IS ASSOCIATED WITH THE CHURCH OF CHRIST, MY FIRST COUSIN MARRIED
THE HEAD OF A BIBLE DEPARTMENT, MY COUSIN IS ON THE BOARD OF A UNIVERSITY ASSOCIATED
THE CHURCH OF CHRIST, ETC.  MY POINT IS THAT I UNDERSTAND THE DOCTRINE OF
THE CHURCH OF CHRIST.  WE DO NOT BELIEVE THAT ONLY MEMBERS OF THE CHURCH
OF CHRIST WILL GET TO HAVEN.  WE DO NOT BELIEVE THAT BAPTISM IS REQUIRED
TO GO TO HEAVEN.   ALTHOUGH SOME OF MY FELLOW MEMBERS OF THE CHURCH OF
CHRIST MAY DISAGREE, HAVE THEM READ THE FIRST TWO CHAPTERS OF THE BOOK OF
ROMANS.   NATURE TEACHES US THAT THERE IS A GOD (ROM 1:20).  PAUL
FINISHED THIS ARGUMENT AT ROM 2: 14-16.  GOD IS THE JUDGE (NOT MAN).
 WHEN A PERSON TELLS YOU THAT A PERSON IS GOING TO HELL BECAUSE HE WAS NOT
BAPTIZED, HE IS TAKING THE POSITION OF JUDGE.  STUDY THE FIRST TWO
CHAPTERS OF ROMANS!!!!!
CWR

34 CWR August 25, 2013 at 10:13 am

MARK: EMAIL ME.  I WOULD LOVE TO HELP YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I BELIEVE.  I DO BELIEVE THAT I MUST BE BAPTIZED TO GO TO HEAVEN.  THAT IS WHAT I MUST DO, NOT WHAT YOU MUST DO.  STUDY THE FIRST TWO CHAPTERS OF ROMANS.  THAT IS THE DOCTRINE OF THE CHURCH OF CHIRST.  MY JOB IS TO SPREAD THE GOSPEL (THE GOOD NEWS), NOT TO BE THE JUDGE (THANK GOD).

35 Lynn Mac August 25, 2013 at 1:47 pm

CWR
I have been a member of the church of Christ for 30+ years.  I would like to make some observations about your posts.
1) You say ” WE DO NOT BELIEVE THAT BAPTISM IS REQUIRED TO GO TO HEAVEN.”  But in your other post you say “I DO BELIEVE THAT I MUST BE BAPTIZED TO GO TO HEAVEN”  So to clarify, must one be baptized to be saved?
2)You say about baptism “THAT IS WHAT I MUST DO, NOT WHAT YOU MUST DO”. How can baptism be required for one person to be saved but not for another?
3) You post “WE DO NOT BELIEVE THAT ONLY MEMBERS OF THE CHURCH OF CHRIST WILL GET TO HAVEN.”  Eph 4:4,5 says there is just ONE body and ONE faith.  Eph 5:23 tells us Christ is the Saviour of that one body.  The idea there are many bodies and many faiths is a corruption of man.  Jesus once prayed ‘thy word is truth” and truth does not contradict itself as all the various religious groups do, so it is not possible all can possess that truth, that one faith.
5) you post “WHEN A PERSON TELLS YOU THAT A PERSON IS GOING TO HELL BECAUSE HE WAS NOT BAPTIZED, HE IS TAKING THE POSITION OF JUDGE.  STUDY THE FIRST TWO CHAPTERS OF ROMANS!!!!!”
Jesus said to judge righteous judgment, Jn 7:24.  Would it be wrong to judge one who has no faith to be lost?  Isn’t taking the gospel to the world a judgment that the world is lost?

36 Lynn Mac August 25, 2013 at 1:58 pm

CWR
6) you post about “…. THE DOCTRINE OF THE CHURCH OF CHIRST”  You do realize the church of Christ does not have its own set of doctrines but gets its doctrine from the bible.    Water baptism saves NOT because the church of Christ says it does but because the bible says it does.

37 CWR August 25, 2013 at 4:02 pm

I HAVE BEEN A MEMBER FOR 59 YEARS. (I AM 73)
1.THE KEY WORD IS THAT “I” BELIEVE THAT “I
“ HAVE TO BE BAPTIZED, BUT I AM NOT A PERSON AS DESCRIBED IN ROMANS CHAPTERS 1
& 2.NATURE DID NOT TEACH ME
THAT THERE IS A GOD (ALTHOUGH IT SURE SUPPORTED THAT FACT).
2.PAUL SAYS IN ROMANS 2:14 THAT GENTILES ARE A RIGHTEOUS
LAW FOR THEMSELVES.THEY WILL BE
JUDGED BY WHAT THEY HAD DONE.IS
THE RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT OF ROMANS THE SAME AS THAT IN JN 7:24?
3.EPH.. 4:4-5IS TALKING ABOUT CHRISTIANS.PAUL IS ADDRESSING THE STATUS OF PEOPLE WHO NEVER HAD HEARD
OF CHRIST.SINCE THY WORD IS TRUTH
AND TRUTH DOES NOT CONTRADICT ITSELF IS NOT ROMANS PART OF THE WORD OF
TRUTH?PLEASE RECONCILE EPH AND
ROMANS.
4.NOTHING
5.MY JOB IS TO SPREAD THE GOSPEL..SINCE PEOPLE WHO BELIEVED THAT THERE IS
A GOD BASED UPON WHAT NATURETEACHES
THEM(ROMANS1:20), WHO KNEW NOTHING ABOUT CHRIST, HOW CAN THEY HAVE THE FAITH THAT I HAVE?WE KNOW THE BLOOD OF CHRIST FLOWED BOTH
WAYS.JEWS WILL BE SAVED IF GOD
JUDGES THEM TO HAVE BEEN FAITHFUL.DO THEYHAVE THE “ONE
FAITH” THAT I HAVE?WHAT ABOUT THE
PATRIOTICALLY FATHERS? WERE ANY FROM THE LAST TWO GROUPS BAPTIZED? YOU REFER TO
“RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT” IN JOHN 7:24.IS THIS JUDGMENT BASED UPON THE GOSPEL (WITHOUT ROMANS), OR THE GENTILES
WHO ARE RIGHTEOUS IN GOD’S SIGHT? ROMANS 2:13-14?
FOR MANY YEARS I TAUGHT THE SECOND
LARGEST ADULT CLASS AT A CONGREGATION THAT HAD SUNDAY ATTENDANCE OF OVER 1,000
(THE PULPIT MINISTER HAD THE LARGEST).ONE MOTHER OF A YOUNG MAN (ABOUT 30 YEARS OLD) ASKS HER SON IF ALL I DID
WAS ASK QUESTIONS.SHE ALSO SAID
THAT SHE WAS GLAD THAT HER SON WAS IN MY CLASS.
IF YOU WILL ANSWER MY QUESTIONS,
WE WILL GET TO THE TRUTH.RATHER
THAN REGURGITATING THE SCRIPTURES THAT YOU AND I HAVE HEARD COUNTLESS TIMES
FROM THE PULPIT, STUDY THE FIRST TWO CHAPTERS OF ROMANS AND ANSWER MY
QUESTIONS.
REMEMBER:JUDGE NOT THAT YOU BE NOT JUDGE IS NOT
TELLING US NOT TO JUDGE, BUT TO BE CAREFUL: “FOR WHAT JUDGMENT YOU METE OUT
WILL BE METED OUT TO YOU”.

38 CWR August 25, 2013 at 4:20 pm

doctrine |ˈdäktrin|
noun
a belief or set of beliefs held and taught by a church, political party, or other group: the doctrine of predestination.
SO THE DOCTRINE OF THE CHURCH OF CHRIST IS THE DOCTRINE TAUGHT IN THE BIBLE.

39 JimAnderlik September 2, 2013 at 8:42 pm

Lynn Mac CWR wh
ere does the Bible say baptism saves?

40 r phillips September 2, 2013 at 9:51 pm

Probably 1 Peter 3:21

41 JimAnderlik September 2, 2013 at 11:10 pm

r phillips we can take 1 verse and make it what we anything want it to mean, Ephesians 2:8-9 and Ephesians 1:7 are very clear that through faith Jesus’ blood we are saved, not by baptism, otherwise He lied to the thief on the cross

42 r phillips September 3, 2013 at 7:22 am

A) Jesus had the power to forgive sins on earth.
B) the thief on the cross died under the old covenant before baptism had anything to do with the salvation process. 1 Peter states baptism saves us by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Romans 6 says baptism unites us with Christ in his death and raises us to walk in newness of life. Acts 2:38 and Acts 22:16 make it clear that our sins are forgiven at baptism.
You take Ephesians and other verses that talk about faith and salvation and make it say what you want it to me: we are saved by grace through faith *alone*. No verse in the bible says we are saved through faith alone. And no verse defines baptism as a work. That was mans doing. Baptism is God’s work (Col 2:12)

43 Lynn Mac September 3, 2013 at 8:43 am

JimAnderlik r phillips 
One verse as 1 Pet 3:21 is all that would be needed to prove baptism saves.
Eph 2:8 says faith saves, 1 Pet 3:21 says baptism saves.
Since all bible verses are in complete harmony, and there is just one way to be saved, then harmonizing Eph 2:8 with 1 Pet 3:21 we get:
Eph 2:8——–faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
1Pet3:21—–baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
Then e cn with certainty a saving faith includes baptism.

44 CWR September 3, 2013 at 10:43 am

I AM STILL WAITING ON YOU TO RECONCILE THE
FIRST TWO CHAPTERS OF ROMANS WITH YOUR DOCTRINE.  YOU CANNOT TAKE ONE (OR
MORE) SCRIPTURES, QUOTE THEM, AND PUT A NAIL IN THE SUBJECT.  AS YOU SAID
THE BIBLE DOES NOT CONTRADICT ITSELF.  THE FIRST TWO CHAPTERS OF ROMANS
SAYS THAT THERE IS ANOTHER SIDE OF THE SUBJECT THAN WHAT YOU ARE SAYING.  
CWR

45 Lynn Mac September 3, 2013 at 12:06 pm

CWR 
In Romans chapters 1 and 2 Paul is talking about the Gentiles who lived under the Patriarchal law that existed prior to the law of Moses and the Jews who had been given the law of Moses.  Neither Jew or Gentile under those laws could be completely justified or made completely righteous for Christ had not yet died and  shed His blood.  As Paul concludes in Rom 3:9 that all (Jew and Gentile) are under sin.  Complete righteousness and justification comes by faith (not faith only) in Christ.  When one obeys and submits to water bpatism his sins are remitted, Acts 2:38, he is “in Christ” Gal 2:27 and being “in Christ” is the only place one can stand before God completely justified and completely righteous.  Again, being “in Christ’ was not something those Gentiles or Jews under those OT laws could be that’s why Paul concluded both groups under sin.

46 JimAnderlik September 3, 2013 at 4:24 pm

r phillips understand the difference between water baptism and spiritual baptism, which col 2:12 refers to. baptism is an outward showing of our faith in Christ
amen

47 JimAnderlik September 3, 2013 at 5:08 pm

Poolman this refers to physical and spiritual birth sir-not baptism

48 Lynn Mac September 3, 2013 at 5:18 pm

@Stephen
Some in various theological realms claim that water baptism is for those who have already become a Christian, which implies there is such a person who is an “unbaptized Christian”.
In , when Jesus gave the Great Commission, Jesus said “Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.”
“The participle (“baptizing”) explains “the manner in which the given action [”make disciples”] was performed” (Green, p. 332).
Water baptism is how one was made a disciple or Christian, (Acts 6:7; 11:26) so one cannot be a Christian until he has been baptized.

49 Lynn Mac September 3, 2013 at 5:19 pm

Conversions in the Book of Acts The conversion of the Jews, Acts 2
The conversion of Simon, Samaritans and the eunuch in Acts 8
The conversion of Saul in Acts 9 & 22
The conversion of the Gentiles in Acts 10 & 11
The conversion of Lydia and the jailer in Acts 16
The conversion of Crispus and the Corinthians in Acts 18
The conversion of Ephesians in Acts 19
In Acts 15:11 Peter said that “….we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we (Jews) shall be saved in the same manner as they (Gentiles).”
Since Jews and Gentiles are saved in the same manner, what was the ‘same manner’ way that took place with each conversion in the book of Acts?
The Jews Acts 2:38: water baptism
Simon, Samaritans and eunuch in Acts 8:12,13,38: water baptism
Saul, Acts 22:16: water baptism
Gentiles, Acts 10:47,48: water baptism
Lydia and the jailer, Acts 16:15,33: water baptism
Crispus and the Corinthians, Acts 18:8 : water baptism
Ephesians, Acts 19:5 : water baptism
So the common thread, the like manner way Jews and Gentiles in the book of Acts were saved was by water baptism….not faith only, no sinner’s prayer, no baptism with the Holy Spirit…….but water baptism.

50 r phillips September 3, 2013 at 5:28 pm

Holy Spirit baptism is only documented twice in the NT (Acts 2 and Acts 10, 11). Ephesians 4:5 tells us there is only ONE baptism for the New Covenant believer. Water baptism is obviously practiced by the New Testament church as we can see by the story of the Etheopian Eunich, by Acts 2:38 and Acts 22:16 stating baptism as a command (you would not command someone to be baptized with or by the Holy Spirit) and 1 Peter 3:21 undeniably is speaking of water baptism as it relates our baptism to 8 people being saved in the days of Noah by *water*
Baptism for the NT Christian is full immersion in water. Unless the context of the verse suggests otherwise (since the Greek word literally means immerse it is occasionally used in other contexts) baptism should always be interpreted as full immersion in water.

51 CWR September 3, 2013 at 6:45 pm

Lynn Mac CWRARE YOU SAYING THAT THE ROMANS WERE
WORRIED ABOUT THEIR LOVED ONES THAT LIVED CENTURIES BEFORE THE CHRIST? NO, THEY WERE WORRIED ABOUT THEIR LOVE ONES WHO THEY
LIVED WITH, BUT DIED BEFORE THEY KNEW ABOUT CHRIST(WEEKS AND/OR MONTHS).  PAUL USED THE
 “NATURE TEACHES US” SO THAT HE WOULD INCLUDE 100% OF ALL
HUMANS.  THIS WAY HE DID NOT HAVE TO ADDRESS THE LAW OF MOSES.  YES,
WE ARE ALL UNDER SIN, BUT THE KEY IS TO UNDERSTAND HOW GOD WILL JUDGE THOSE WHO
NEVER HEARD OF CHRIST.  PAUL WAS TALKING ABOUT ALL MANKIND WHOSE ONLY
OPPORTUNITY WAS FOR NATURE TO TEACH THEM.LAST SUNDAY I WATCHED A RELIGIOUS PROGRAM (CHURCH OF CHRIST).THEY SPENT 30 MINUTES TEACHING THE “5”
STEPS OF SALVATION.YOU NEED TO
START EATING MEAT.YOU HAVE YOUR
FAVORITE SCRIPTURES THAT DRIVE HOME YOUR POINT, BUT MISS THE TARGET OF WHAT
HAPPENS TO THOSE WHO WERE NOT BLESSED WITH A CHRISTIAN FAMILY, NO CHRISTIAN
FRIENDS, AS YOU AND I HAVE BEEN BLESSED.YOU AND I ARE ON THE SAME PAGE WHEN WE ARE DISCUSSING FAITH, BAPTISM, GRACE,
ETC.WHERE WE PART IS IN TRYING TO
UNDERSTAND THE FATE OF THOSE WHO WERE NOT BLESSED WITH A CHRISTIAN FAMILY, BUT WERE
BORN IN INDIA, LIVED IN A NON-CHRISTIAN SOCIETY, ETC.THOSE PEOPLE ARE OUT THERE TODAY.O WELL, I HAVE
TRIED TO INTRODUCE YOU TO A PART OF THE BIBLE THAT YOU SEEM TO THINK IS TALKING
TO SOMEONE WHO LIVE CENTURIES BEFORE CHRIST.
CWR

52 Lynn Mac September 3, 2013 at 7:52 pm

CWR Lynn Mac
In the Roman epistle, Paul is writing an essay on justification/righteousness and that those Jews and Gentiles who lived prior to Christ’s death could not be completely justified.  Paul goes on to explain justification takes place by faith in Christ, not by any OT law.  Those Gentiles did not have God’s written law as the Jews  “… which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law”.  So those Jews and Gentiles were under sin but the Christian in Christ is not….”There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus..” Rom 8:1.  Those that live in “non-Christian” countries must obey the gospel if they are to be in Christ where there is no condemnation.  If they do not obey the gospel, they will be lost….”In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:”, 2 Thess 1:8.

53 CWR September 3, 2013 at 8:20 pm

Lynn Mac CWR NO, THE FIRST PART OF ROMANS WAS WRITTEN TO COMFORT THE NEWLY CONVERTED ROMAN CHRISTIANS.
CWR

54 Lynn Mac September 4, 2013 at 12:05 pm

CWR Lynn Mac 
We’ll just have to disagree. 
Rom 1 Paul deals with the Gentiles who did NOT have God’s written law but they could still know God by HIs creation so they are “without excuse”, v20.  Even though those Gentiles knew God v21 they did not obey HIm so God gave them over to their vile affections, vs 24ff.
In Rom 2 Paul turns his attention to the Jews, “thou..old man” v1.  They too were inexcusable for unlike the Gentiles, they DID HAVE God’s law written down for them, Rom 3:2,  but like the Gentiles they too disobeyed God, v5.
So in Rom 3:9 Paul concludes both groups, Jew and Gentile, under sin.

55 Lisa November 11, 2013 at 1:59 am

I can see that the Bible teaches baptism is essential for salvation. Why do people argue this point? According to one side, belief is all you need. People who repent and get baptized do believe, so both sides agree that those people are saved. If you dont believe baptism is essential, take your chances with God and dont do it…but don’t bash good people for teaching baptism. Will baptism hurt them? You see, the baptized ones are saved either way…the unbaptized? Better hope you are right…because if you are wrong then you are condemned. Believing, repenting and being baptized gets you saved in either argument.

56 Julie Fogg March 11, 2014 at 2:26 pm

Just one question for you: Could you kindly point me to book, chapter and verse where your “denomination” finds the “Sinner’s Prayer” that you claim saves souls? Also, please show me where denomination is used.Have a blessed day!

57 delta4ce1 May 23, 2014 at 6:48 pm

It seems that Southern Baptists, like the Scribes and Pharisees, don’t realize that they also hold some false teachings but feel very comfortable and self righteous with condemning what they see is the false teachings of others. That’s hypocrisy pure and simple. Since when did Southern Baptists become the gate keepers of absolute truth? They’ll all say that no one can actually “know” the truth for sure, that it just takes faith or a subjective prejudice in other words. They actually put themselves in the same boat with people they condemn exactly the way Mr. Phil Robertson does. No one seems to have realized that the gospel according to Paul is wrong and that the golden rule, rather than the bodily resurrection of Jesus, is the gospel that Jesus said was “the way, the truth, and the life.” The resurrection is hearsay and not one person who has ever lived can justly be condemned and punished for not believing hearsay of any kind.

58 Eric Gimbel June 26, 2014 at 7:52 pm

“What did Peter mean when he said in 1 Peter 3:21, “baptism doth also now save us….?” How does it save us? Well, in the preceding verse he talks about eight souls who were saved in the ark. They went through the waters of judgment inside the ark. The folk in the water were those who were outside the ark, and they were drowned. The eight people in the ark didn’t get wet at all–yet Peter says they were saved by baptism. Obviously the word baptism has nothing to do with water in this instance; rather it means identification. They were identified with the ark. They had believed God, and they had gotten into the ark. God saw that little boat floating on the surface of the water. Now today God sees Christ; He doesn’t see Vernon McGee because I am in Christ. He is my ark today. Christ went down into the waters of death, and we are in Christ. And we are raised with Him. We are joined to him. This is important. don’t miss it. If you do, you will miss one of the greatest truths of the Christian life.” Thru the bible with Vernon McGee.

Also, please understand that Romans 6 is the beginning of Paul’s dissertation if you will on positional sanctification which when the word baptism is used, which by the way is a transliteration of the Greek word baptiso, because that Greek word has so many different meanings, it is talking about being identified with Christ.

As far as the thief on the cross goes, when you state that he was saved under the old covenant you are then stating that salvation was different for the old testament saints versus the new testament saints. Unfortunately, this is what is known as hyperdispensationalism which is heresy. Salvation has always been the same for the old testament saints they looked forward by faith to a coming Savior. As new testament saints, we look back toward our Savior. Salvation has always been by faith–please read Hebrews chapter 11.

As for the conversion of Saul of tarsus which occurred in chapter 9 on the Damascus road. The verse that you need to read is 9:17 where if you notice Ananias puts his hands on saying Brother Saul which clearly means he was saved. But now had to be filled with the Holy Spirit for service and baptized as a sign and seal of his conversion.
The other important distinction in the book of Acts is that there is a order set forth as in verse 16:30, when the jailer asks Paul and Silas, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” And in verse 31, they say”Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. And then in verse 32, they then speak the Word of the Lord unto him and all that were in his house. And after that the same hour they then were baptized. Clearly here the order is put forth which when one believes on the Lord Jesus Christ they are saved; period. Then after some instruction from the Word of God they are baptized as a testimony and seal of their conversion.

Stop taking verses out of context this is how every heresy has ever started. Study hermeneutics which is the literal, historical(cultural), and grammatical interpretation of the Word of God. When you do study it you get some very good principles on the exegesis of scripture, such as scripture interprets scripture. And pray and please don’t be afraid to consult commentaries as they are not perfect, however they are men of God who have been blessed with the gift of teaching. Read Spurgeon, Wesley, Henry, Ironside, Sunday, Moody, Torrey, Edwards, and the great men of faith that preached revivals such as these men and you get a clear picture of bible doctrine. God bless.

59 larry gordy July 3, 2014 at 8:53 pm

the gospel reveals how God makes man righteous Rom.1 16,17.Israel and sadly a lot of our denominational friends will not submit to Gods righteousness ROM.10 3 INSTEAD they seek to establish their own righteousness.2 Thess.1 8 says Jesus will return & take vengeance on those who do not OBEY the gospel.THE GOSPEL MUST BE OBEYED!! Not believed only.The gospel is the death,burial & resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.1st Corinth.15 1-4.Man is made righteous when he submits to GOD S way of making man righteous Rom 6 1-5.Verse 17 ,18 says ROMAN SAINTS WERE SET FREE FROM SIN WHEN THEY OBEYED FROM THE HEART THAT FORM OF DOCTRINE WHICH WAS DELIVERED UNTO THEM,not when they believed the doctrine.the doctrine they obeyed was verses 3-5 Rom.6.Allow me to recommend an excellent book for any struggling with this issue Muscle & Shovel by Michael Shanks.May God bless all who search His word for truth.

60 Jennifer July 24, 2014 at 9:53 pm

In Acts 25-26 – Jews were plotting to kill Paul because he was preaching that Jesus had risen from the dead but the Jews insisted that Jesus had not…. so he ended up on trial before Festus and King Agrippa. King Agrippa was familiar with the customs of the Jews (Acts 26:2-3). Paul explains his conversion (from persecutor of Christians to his conversion) and King Agrippa believed (Acts 26:27). So King Agrippa believed in Paul’s teachings but was still not a Christian because in vs 28 of chapter 26 it says “Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.” So his belief was not enough to be a Christian.

The bible clearly teaches that baptism is essential for salvation. thank you (r phillips comments)- Lets look at Act 19: People that were baptized by John the Baptist before the death of Jesus – were re-baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus after his death (vs 4-5) The concern that I have is denominations are teaching that it is not necessary……what if they are wrong. So many people will be lost.

Christians should study (2 Timothy 2:14) and not depend on man-made doctrines to change biblical teachings.

61 Eric July 26, 2014 at 10:45 pm

Baptism is NOT essential for salvation. Your reading things into the text that you cited which is an eisegesis, not an exegesis of the text which is correct bible interpretation. You also need to compare scripture with scripture, please refer to Mark 16:16. I will quote it here: “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” Justification is by faith. Baptism is symbolic of what took place at regeneration. It also publicly professes after a person is saved that their old flesh is dead, and that they will walk in newness of life following Christ. It pictures perfectly the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. And we are crucified with him in that death. That’s why it is also called believers baptism, it is also why the proper mode of baptism is full immersion. “He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.” 1 John 5:12 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Ephesians 2:8,9 You are also going against a whole host of Godly preachers, some of which were responsible for great revivals and if you read Ephesians 4, you will see that one of the gifts that the Lord gives to the church are preachers and teachers. Please read spurgeon, moody, sunday, edwards, calvin, wesley, and chafer so name a few. These men are not infallible, however they are great men of faith that God used greatly and they all agree that baptism is not required for salvation. This is the false doctrine known as baptismal regeneration.

62 Eric July 26, 2014 at 10:51 pm

Also, please remember that if your truly saved, you will follow the Lord in obedience and get baptized, so your thinking that so many would be lost doesn’t make any sense. Baptism is a physical act that a person willfully participates in after salvation, therefore if it was required for salvation then that would mean we are not saved by grace through faith, but that a work would be necessary for salvation. And that is the antithesis of Ephesians 2:8,9.

63 J.P. Crowder November 6, 2014 at 3:35 pm

Yes, Here you blog and here you selectively censor such contributions as I have made that you apparently deem too persuasive to be permitted to remain lest they dissuade some who read hem from learning the truth about New Testament water baptism. If you disagree, then kindly advise why my posts have been removed. Do so via e-mail if you prefer.

64 J.P. Crowder November 7, 2014 at 2:13 am

The conversion experience of Saul (Paul) is instructive concerning the purpose of water baptism in the New Testament.

The notion that the apostle Paul was saved on the Road to Damascus before he was baptized, as believed and taught by many evangelicals, is simply not supported by scripture. Paul, after asking, “Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?” was instructed by the Lord, to “Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.” (Acts 8:6) Paul himself recounts what he was told once he had gone into Damascus and found Ananias, a disciple the Lord had chosen to instruct Paul. He was told simply this, which ought to settle any question of whether he had already had his sins forgiven and been saved on the road to Damascus:

“And now why tarriest thou? Arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.” (Acts 22:16)

Had Paul’s sins been been somehow washed away on the road to Damascus? Obviously not, else Ananias would
not have told him what to do in order to have his sins washed away. The often taught notion that baptism can not have anything to do with salvation is based on the incorrect characterization of baptism as a “work.” Since we are not
saved by “works”, it is argued that baptism, being a “work” has nothing to do with salvation.

But the scriptures nowhere teach that baptism is a work of merit. Baptism is simply a part
of the lost sinner’s acceptance of that salvation that is offered by the grace of God. No one is
arguing that repentance is a“work,” but repentance is necessary for salvation. Repentance is something the lost
sinner MUST DO in order to accept that salvation offered by the grace of God,but it is not a work of merit. Neither faith, repentance, nor baptism (all of which are necessary elements of the sinner’s obedience to the gospel) are
“works”.

The documented history of the church shows that baptism was considered necessary for forgiveness of
sins for about the first 1400 years of Christian history. Early reformers like Calvin and Zwingli,in their
over-reaction to the Catholic Church’s reliance on works of merit,erroneously characterized baptism as a “work” and thus concluded, compounding the error,that baptism was not necessary for forgiveness of sin. Their
error, unfortunately, has been widely propagated.

65 Donna Davis November 13, 2014 at 8:34 am

I am concerned about their belief that baptism saves, I have read their books, and apparently baptism saves, and you still need help to go to heaven by living a good clean life. I love their commitment, and boldness, but is it truly the scriptural gospel if they are teaching salvation by baptism, and continued salvation by works. requires a lot less faith in Jesus and a lot more faith in self.

66 Mark Lamprecht November 13, 2014 at 8:45 am

Donna, I wish more people were as aware as you are. Enough people are not paying attention. Thanks.

67 Donna Davis November 13, 2014 at 8:51 am

I wish that all christians paid more attention to biblical details when it comes to what they will accept, too many following things that are false. (and I include myself as to needing to know more about scripture to see whats wrong with teachings that don’t meet scripture standards)
Nothing wrong with watching DD, don’t know about their private personal spiritual life to know if someone is a christian or not, just don’t want christians watching it and following these unscriptural teachings.

68 Jerry Minor November 13, 2014 at 9:10 am

Here is my take: We live in a spiritual wasteland when it comes to entertainment, thus we want to embrace anything that runs counter to that norm. As a result we will turn a blind eye to bad theology and grasp any form of morality wearing religious garb.

69 Grace B ForMe November 13, 2014 at 2:30 pm

Mark, my experience with ICC/CoC has taught me that their understanding of when you receive the Holy Spirit is the issue. They believe that you meet/receive the Holy Spirit “in the water”. Without the water, their is no indwelling of the Holy Spirit. If you ask them, though, what if I die before I am baptized, my experience is, they will say, “I believe God sees your intent to be baptized, and will let you into heaven”.
All told, it is a man-centered view of salvation.

70 Mark Lamprecht November 13, 2014 at 10:15 pm

This church in particular teaches as part of their evangelism training to get Baptists like me to re-baptize properly so I may be saved. In the water is where regeneration takes place. One of my local pastor friends spoke on the phone with one of the elders of this church. My friend asked about the guy who professes faith during lunch but is killed driving back before baptism. His answer was not clear but indicative that the person may not have been saved.

71 Felix Ortiz January 17, 2016 at 10:44 am

I am UPC and like the Church of Christ we believe that there is one way to the father and that’s through the father by way of Acts 2:38 which clearly instructs us to REPENT and be BAPTIZED in the NAME of JESUS for the REMISSION of SIN and then re shall receive the gift of the HOLY GHOST which is a promise to all! My friends that is the new covenant that which we was instructed to do after the death burial an resurrection Of Jesus!

72 Frank Ward March 1, 2018 at 7:57 pm

This is why Baptism is essential to salvation…
1. Jesus said “he that believes AND is baptized shall be SAVED…Mark 16:16.
2. Peter said “repent AND be baptized FOR the REMISSION of your SINS…Acts 2:38
3. For as many of you that have been Baptized INTO Christ have PUT ON CHRIST… Galatians 3:27.
If you want to be a Christian…you must put Christ on in the water (baptism).

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