A Few More Things You Should Know About Duck Dynasty

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Joe Carter at The Gospel Coalition Voices blog gave us “9 Things You Should Know about Duck Dynasty.” Those nine things are pretty interesting and are far from the norm for a reality TV show. What other show has men with three foot beards wearing bandanas?

Admittedly, I have never seen the show since I don’t have cable. I have seen clips and plenty of praise for the show on Facebook and twitter. The stars of the show seem pretty cool in a redneck sorta way. As best I can tell they are more down to earth than their appearance would lead you to believe.

All of the buzz about this TV family is not from the beards or duck calls, but as Carter deems them, they are “reality television’s most gospel-centric family.”

I thought – Man! Now they’re even cooler…until I found out what they believe about the gospel.

The Duck Dynasty folks are part of the White’s Ferry Road Church of Christ. This Church of Christ denomination holds that baptism is essential for salvation. Yes, essential. That means the gospel + baptism saves.

I know some may find this hard to believe and I was sad when I stumbled upon this information. I’m willing to be corrected and I hope I am wrong, but from what will is presented below, I fear I am right.

I didn’t even realize this, but my friend, Josh Buice, posted The Duck Dynasty Gospel back on Dec 11, 2012. I called Josh on the way home to discuss his post. His brief examination brought him to the same conclusion that the Duck Dynasty gospel is one that includes essential baptism. The videos Josh posted show the DD guys preaching and though it’s subtle, each example given about someone being saved includes an immediate baptism.

But what about a clear statement of the gospel + baptism for salvation?

The Christian Chronical has an article on the church titled, “White’s Ferry Road: A church of small groups.” The article lists the ministries of White’s Ferry Road. One of those ministries is We Care Ministries which is lead by “Director Larry West, who has 30 years of experience.” In case anyone wonder whether or not the church and ministry are still connected, White’s Ferry and We Care have the same address in West Monroe, LA.

White’s Ferry Road offers a short video – the Gospel Movie – in which baptism is mentioned. The video does not go in depth so it is difficult to draw a conclusion of where they stand on baptism from this presentation.

However, Larry West has a video on the We Care Ministries website called “Step Into The Water, Is Baptism Essential?” West is very clear that baptism is essential for salvation. Toward the end of the video West disregards the sinner’s prayer and then explains that one is not saved until baptism. He also claims that baptism is not for the saved, but for the lost. Don’t take my word for it; watch for yourself.

We Care Ministries also has a gospel presentation called,”Focusing on being saved only in the blood of Jesus” which I will quote below. Note how one of the points in the presentation goes directly against one who professes faith alone for salvation.

At the end of the WCM Gospel Presentation, drawing it to a close, often the fundamentalist will say something like, “But I have already been baptized” or “I’ve already done that!” Refer back to your detailed interview, reminding him of his own story. Remind him he said (pick one),

1. “I don’t remember why I was baptized. I just did what I was told to do.”
2. “I was baptized to join my church.”
3. “I was baptized to show I had been saved.”
4. The most common are, “I am already a Christian,” and “I am already saved; I was saved when I believed in Jesus.”
5. We have been told even, “I was baptized for permission to marry my wife.”

If any one of these responses is the case, the following is good to do:

Dialog

Soul Winner (SW): “Do you remember that you told me in your own words, “I was saved that night during the prayer (referring to the “Sinner’s Prayer)?”

Prospect (P): Yes.

SW: “… and that you told me it occurred (at a certain time) and then you were baptized the next Sunday?”

P: “Yes.”

SW: “May I kindly ask,’Can a person be saved outside the blood of Jesus?’”
“In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace” (Eph. 1:7)

Prospect (P): “Why, no.”

SW: In “The Gospel Enacted” point to the cross and ask, “When was the blood of Jesus shed?”
“But when they came to Jesus and saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs. But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.” (John 19:33-34)

P: “In His death.”

SW: “That’s right. Now, according to the Bible (pointing to Romans 6:3) when do we get into the death of Jesus where the blood washed? Please read this.”

P: “Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?” (Romans 6:3)

SW: “So, it’s into the water, into the death, into the blood of Jesus! Is that correct?”

P: “Yes.”

SW: “So, according to the Bible, our sins must be in the presence of the blood of Jesus for the blood to affect them, or to cancel them! Correct?”

P: “Yes.”

SW: “So, should we bring our sins to the crucified Savior?”
(Support verse for possible backup: “And baptism, which this prefigured, now saves you–not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (all the way through the Gospel),” (I Peter 3:21 NRSV)

I mean, isn’t it apparent those sins must be present for the blood to do the cleansing?”
(Support verse for possible backup: “And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.” (Hebrews 9:22)

P: “Yes.”

SW: “So, how could you have been saved on that front seat in that prayer still outside the blood of Jesus?”

P: “I couldn’t!”

SW: “You told me you
(pick one)
1. “Didn’t know why you were baptized,” or
2. “Were baptized to join a church,” or
3. “Were baptized to show you had already been saved.”
So, again, can a person be saved outside the blood of Jesus?”

P: “No! I need to be baptized again, don’t I?”

SW: “Well, that is only for you to decide! I am only a teacher of the Gospel. I would recommend, however, that let’s go back to the water, and you (point to the top of the first arrow, draw a stick figure, write the word “sin”) consciously take your sins down into the death of Jesus (point with pen downward to the bottom of the arrow and then to the cross), where the blood was shed.” (Write the word “blood” there; then write the word “sin” there.) Then to make your salvation sure, you can know you have taken your sins to the crucified Savior, Jesus, so that His blood can do its work. Wouldn’t you want to obey the Gospel so that you can go to Heaven?”

Keep silent, and don’t break silence. Don’t comfort until the person answers each question.

SW: You’ve been baptized, but have you obeyed “The Gospel” (2 Tess 1:7-9).

SW: Go back and “Ask the question?”

SW: Again, may I ask, would you please read Acts 22: 16 and give God your response?”

My goal is not to upset anyone, but the gospel is too important not to share this information. I could be wrong and White’s Ferry and the Robertson family might believe differently than those they are affiliated with including one of their own ministers, Larry West.

I am also not trying to get people to stop watching the show, but Christians who promote the show as gospel-centered may want to pause and re-think that position given the above information. I think the guys are cool and I truly hope they are not holding onto their belief in the gospel + baptism for their salvation.

If you have any additional and/or corrective information, please share below!

For the Kingdom…

Mark

P.S. White’s Ferry Road Church of Christ is listed on two Church of Christ websites. One site answers the question “WHY DO YOU EMPHASIZE BAPTISM SO MUCH?” The other site, under “A Call for New Testament Christianity” provides doctrinal statements including the baptism saves.

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tagged as , , , , , , , , , , in apologetics,Christian,Christianity,Gospel,theology
The above article was posted on March 18, 2013


138 comments
ShawneleShawSurplus
ShawneleShawSurplus

You say that the churches of Christ teach gospel + baptism, but they teach, as does Scripture, that the gospel INCLUDES baptism.  He who believes and is baptized shall be saved.  Would you say that that verse teaches the gospel + belief?

LissaW
LissaW like.author.displayName 1 Like

They preach baptism is essential because Jesus Christ said to do it to be saved. So then why would you not do it if Jesus told you to. That's being rebellious against the bible if you don't do what it says! Those who believe and are baptized shall be saved. Mark 16:16

d taylor
d taylor

lets take a few unclear verses and ignore over 100 very clear verses and base our Bible understanding on those few unclear verses.

ShawneleShawSurplus
ShawneleShawSurplus

@d taylorWhat are the unclear verses?

Acts 2:38 ESV And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 22:16 ESV And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name. 

Mark 16:16 ESV Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Romans 6:4 ESV We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

Matthew 28:19 ESV Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

John 3:5 ESV Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 

Colossians 2:12 ESV Having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.

Romans 6:3-4 ESV Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. 

Galatians 3:27 ESV For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 

1 Peter 3:21 ESV  Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ

 

d taylor
d taylor

What your  teacher says is what you have been saying since you started posting in this discussion, that a person is saved by works (doing physical things being baptised, obedience, repenting of sins etc..)

Why does your teacher have to take Acts 2:38 and import it into the Cornelius verses. when the context of the verses about Cornelius never even hint at their baptism being for forgivness of sins.

b. It was necessary for Cornelius and his household to be immersed in water in Jesus’ name (Acts 10:47,48) for the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38). (For a full understanding of this, see the lesson on God’s Plan of Salvation and examine the next section in this lesson dealing with the indwelling presence of the Spirit.)

 In Acts 11:17 they say they received the gift after believing

Acts 11:17 Therefore if God gave them the same gift as he also gave us after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to hinder God?

Here is what Paul says about receiving of the Holy Spirit. He says when you believed in Christ you were marked with the seal. This was to the   Ephesians 1:1 From Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, to the saints [in Ephesus], the faithful in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 1:13 And when you heard the word of truth (the gospel of your salvation) – when you believed in Christ – you were marked with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit,

r phillips
r phillips

If you think this verse proves baptism does not save then you could also use this verse to prove belief does not save because if he was baptized in the name of Jesus Christ he clearly already believed which, from your point of view, should have given him the Holy Spirit. If you look at this verses in context, however, you will see that this verse is not talking about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (where the spirit comes to reside within you, meaning you're saved) but the gifts of the Holy Spirit such as speaking in tongues which could only be received through the laying on of the apostles hands. We know this for a few reasons:

1) regardless of whether you are saved when you believe or saved when you are baptized, he would be saved at this point and thus received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

2) Simon SAW that the spirit was given through the laying of hands

3) when he offered them money he said it was so "he could have this POWER too"

4) it was given through the laying on of the apostles hands. Only this one form of the Holy Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles hands.

There is more than one form/purpose of the Holy Spirit in the bible. There is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and the baptism by the Holy Spirit. They are all different and have different purposes in the bible.

This study [ http://www.newcreationstudies.org/NewCreation/holy.htm ] is a little long, but thorough. If you have an unclear understanding of the different ways the Holy Spirit manifests itself in the scriptures, you should definitely read it. He has other resources as well. I would highly recommend his studies. He's one of the smartest and most dedicated men I know.

d taylor
d taylor

Why (in the verses below) did Peter and John have to pray for them to receive the Holy Spirit and why do they refer to baptism as: only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. If baptism was essential to receiving eternal life why this treatment of baptism

8:9 Now in that city was a man named Simon, who had been practicing magic and amazing the people of Samaria, claiming to be someone great. 8:10 All the people, from the least to the greatest, paid close attention to him, saying, "This man is the power of God that is called ‘Great.’" 8:11 And they paid close attention to him because he had amazed them for a long time with his magic. 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he was proclaiming the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they began to be baptized, both men and women. 8:13 Even Simon himself believed, and after he was baptized, he stayed close to Philip constantly, and when he saw the signs and great miracles that were occurring, he was amazed.

8:14 Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. 8:15 These two went down and prayed for them so that they would receive the Holy Spirit. 8:16 (For the Spirit had not yet come upon any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 8:17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on the Samaritans, and they received the Holy Spirit.

8:18 Now Simon, when he saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, offered them money, 8:19 saying, "Give me this power too, so that everyone I place my hands on may receive the Holy Spirit." 8:20 But Peter said to him, "May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could acquire God’s gift with money! 8:21 You have no share or part in this matter because your heart is not right before God! 8:22 Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that he may perhaps forgive you for the intent of your heart. 8:23 For I see that you are bitterly envious and in bondage to sin." 8:24 But Simon replied, "You pray to the Lord for me so that nothing of what you have said may happen to me."

d taylor
d taylor

these verses are unclear because over 100 times when a condition is given for eternal life the only condition is belief / faith/ trust in Christ. with that said a person can see that eternal life is by faith (an event that occurs in just a second of time as long as it takes for a person to believe)

so if receiving etrenal life is by belief, then when there are a few verses that add other conditions to what seems like a verse refering to salvation (from hell) when studied in its context a person can see that this is not speaking about receiving eternal life but that these verses are in relation to a believers sanfication and not their eternal life salvation. Just because you see the word save does not everytime mean salvation from hell

Salvation is a broad term. However, only with difficulty can the common meaning of "deliver from hell" be made to fit into numerous passages. It commonly means "to make whole," "to sanctify," "to endure victoriously," or "to be delivered from some general trouble or difficulty." Without question, the common "knee-jerk" reaction that assumes that "salvation" always has eternal deliverance (from hell) in view has seriously compromised the ability of many to objectively discern what the New Testament writers intended to teach.

Rachel
Rachel

A little long, but this article addresses each and every biblical question that I've read throughout this thread. Further resources linked at bottom. Give it a shot, it's good stuff. Would love to know anyone's thoughts after reading it.

http://www.gospelway.com/salvation/salvation_by_faith.php

d taylor
d taylor

Just more of the same with Bible verses being taken out of context to make the case for a faith plus work salvation which is realy a work based salvation.

r phillips
r phillips like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

I'm curious to know what makes you think baptism is a work? Even Martin Luther who was so committed to the faith only doctrine he actually augmented the bible to help his case.. Adding the word 'alone' to Paul's words in Romans and throwing out the book of James altogether... Understood the necessity of baptism. The bible itself defines baptism as a work of God which goes hand in hand with faith in Colossians 2:12 'raised through faith in the working of God'I really don't get why people get so hung up on this idea that baptism is somehow a works based salvation. There is nothing we do in baptism. It's a completely passive experience in which God does the work.

The bible clearly says there is only ONE baptism therefor when it speaks of baptism it is clearly referring to your physical immersion in water. This is the moment God has chosen to forgive us of our sins and fill us with the Holy Spirit.

r phillips
r phillips

Alright look. You've already admitted that Acts 2:38 is referring to repentance and baptism in water as necessary for forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. Roms 8:9 proves we can't be saved without the spirit. The very next verse proves that this message applies to all New Covenant believers, not just the early Jews.

"And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself." (Acts 2:38, 39 ESV)

"But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ." (Ephesians 2:13 ESV)

If you want to keep making things up in order to deny the scriptures such as a physical salvation from danger, a baptism of/by the Holy Spirit in addition to the Christian's one baptism in water, and a separate gospel message for the Jews and Gentiles be my guest. But I will continue to pray for you to come to repentance and accept all the bible commands, not just the verses that talk about faith. Obedience is surely necessary... "And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him" (Hebrews 5:9 ESV)

d taylor
d taylor

Isaiah 64:6 We are all like one who is unclean, all our so-called righteous acts are like a menstrual rag in your sight. We all wither like a leaf; our sins carry us away like the wind.

d taylor
d taylor

Luke 13:3 look at the verse after Luke 13:3

13:4 Or those eighteen who were killed when the tower in Siloam fell on them, do you think they were worse offenders than all the others who live in Jerusalem?

Jesus is speaking about physical death if these Jews do not repent they will experience physical death and during 70 a.d. thousands died

Great article on Romans 10:9  I have allready posted this once but will post it again for your benefit.

http://www.faithalone.org/journal/1999ii/J23-99b.htm

I would also suggest reading by Joseph Dillow The Reign of the Servant Kings http://www.amazon.com/Reign-Servant-Kings-Joseph-Dillow/dp/1564530957

Also final destiny by Joseph Dillow same book as servant kings but updated with more infromation

http://www.amazon.com/Final-Destiny-Future-Reign-Servant/dp/098567380X

r phillips
r phillips

No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. (Luke 13:3 ESV) repentance is necessary for salvation

So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven. (Matthew 10:32, 33 ESV) confession

Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered. And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him, (Hebrews 5:8, 9 ESV) Jesus is the source of salvation to all who obey him

r phillips
r phillips

Again I will pray for you that you will be able to see past your denominational bias and read the bible as a whole instead of taking a few verses and believing what they say and ignoring all the others which you disagree with. One gospel, one baptism. Romans 10:9-10 even says confession results in salvation. I urge you to study the Greek and what the words and faith and belief mean in the their language.

d taylor
d taylor

r phillips  (You keep saying faith alone saves... the bible never says that. Ever. You are adding the word "alone" to the verses you use, whether intentionally or not.)

r phillips  And finally the ONLY verse that uses the phrase "faith alone" or faith only" in the bible... "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone". (James 2:24 ESV)

Here is an article about this topic   http://www.faithalone.org/journal/1996ii/Wilkin.html

About Matthew 7:21 that you posted look at what the verse is saying i will post 7:21 , 22 and 23 so as you can see what is being said.

7:21Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven – only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.

7:22 On that day, many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name, and in your name cast out demons and do many powerful deeds?’

7:23 Then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you. Go away from me, you lawbreakers!’

7:21 says: only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. what is the will of my Father a person can know what the will of the Father is by reading   John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father – for everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him to have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

notice who is is given the "I never knew you" statement the ones who are trusting in works: didn’t we prophesy in your name, and in your name cast out demons and do many powerful deeds

2 Thessalonians 1:8, 9 not sure if you are pushing the idea of obedience from this verse or not. If so obedience is conected to the area of discipleship. concerning this verse it proves noting toward salvation by works. Because the context is addressing  encouragement in persecution for believers.

Romans 2:1-5 is important for several reasons. First, it helps us to understand that there is a break in the thought be-tween Rom 2:5 and 2:6. Not a radical break in the thought, of course. But a significant one. In 2:6-16, Paul proceeds to the issue of the final judgment of the unrighteous. Of course, there is no such judgment for those who are righteous by faith, since no charge can be brought against them (see Rom 8:33).

full article here http://www.faithalone.org/journal/2005i/hodges.pdf

r phillips
r phillips

You keep saying faith alone saves... the bible never says that. Ever. You are adding the word "alone" to the verses you use, whether intentionally or not.

The bible saying something is accomplished by something is not necessarily to the exclusion of anything else. It would be like if someone moved back in with their parents after college and they have younger siblings that live there too. Well if someone asked him "who do you live with" he would probably say "I'm currently living with my parents" but that doesn't make the fact that he is also living with his siblings any less true. Or if you say 'my car gets me from point A to point B' that might be true, but it doesn't do it alone it still needs gasoline, oil, radiator fluid, etc. Faith is like the vehicle of your salvation. Confession, repentance, and baptism are like your gasoline, oil and radiator fluid.

Many verses talk about faith saving you yes, but it never says it does it to the exclusion of obedience. Whenever they translate a word as believe in the bible it is actually the verb form of the word they translate as faith. It implies action or a response to the message. Many verses prove that those who lack obedience will not be saved. Simply accepting God's existence is not enough.

"So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 10:32, 33 ESV)

"Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord," will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 7:21 ESV)

"...in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might..." (2 Thessalonians 1:8, 9 ESV)

"He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury." (Romans 2:6-8 ESV)

And finally the ONLY verse that uses the phrase "faith alone" or faith only" in the bible... "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone". (James 2:24 ESV)

Also as a side note Acts 1:5 was foretelling the baptism of the Holy Spirit (Acts 11:16), the miraculous and isolated event that only happened to the apostles on the day of Pentecost and at the household of Cornelius. Christian baptism (the one and only baptism) takes place in water.

d taylor
d taylor

Bible links the Spirit with the believer in three different ways: 1. at the time of belief    2. at the time of baptism  3. with laying on of hands  This diversification should warn us against dogmatism in the matter. Acts is not intended to teach a set pattern, but to describe the dynamic movement of the Spirit.

Acts 1:5 For John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

I could have posted many more but these verses all teach receiving eternal life by belief only

John

3:11 I tell you the solemn truth, we speak about what we know and testify about what we have seen, but you people do not accept our testimony.

3:16 For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

3:18 The one who believes in him is not condemned. The one who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

3:36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life. The one who rejects the Son will not see life, but God’s wrath remains on him.

4:10 Jesus answered her, "If you had known the gift of God and who it is who said to you, ‘Give me some water to drink,’ you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water."

4:14 But whoever drinks some of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again, but the water that I will give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up to eternal life."

4:39 Now many Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the report of the woman who testified, "He told me everything I ever did."

4:41 and because of his word many more believed.

4:42 They said to the woman, "No longer do we believe because of your words, for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this one really is the Savior of the world."

4:53 Then the father realized that it was the very time Jesus had said to him, "Your son will live," and he himself believed along with his entire household.

5:24 "I tell you the solemn truth, the one who hears my message and believes the one who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned, but has crossed over from death to life.

5:38 nor do you have his word residing in you, because you do not believe the one whom he sent.

5:39 You study the scriptures thoroughly because you think in them you possess eternal life, and it is these same scriptures that testify about me,

5:40 but you are not willing to come to me so that you may have life.

6:27 Do not work for the food that disappears, but for the food that remains to eternal life – the food which the Son of Man will give to you. For God the Father has put his seal of approval on him."

6:28 So then they said to him, "What must we do to accomplish the deeds God requires?"

6:29 Jesus replied, "This is the deed God requires – to believe in the one whom he sent."

6:35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. The one who comes to me will never go hungry, and the one who believes in me will never be thirsty.

6:40 For this is the will of my Father – for everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him to have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

6:47 I tell you the solemn truth, the one who believes has eternal life.

6:50 This is the bread that has come down from heaven, so that a person may eat from it and not die.

6:51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats from this bread he will live forever. The bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh."

7:38 let the one who believes in me drink. Just as the scripture says, ‘From within him will flow rivers of living water.’"

7:39 (Now he said this about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were going to receive, for the Spirit had not yet been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.)

20:30 Now Jesus performed many other miraculous signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not recorded in this book.

20:31 But these are recorded so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

r phillips
r phillips

And there is not a single verse in the bible that says we are saved by faith alone. You are adding that to these verses. Just because the bible says something to be true that doesn't mean it is to the exclusion of everything else. Your faith absolutely saves you. If you have true faith you will follow his word and obey his commands. You will confess, repent, and be baptized. You won't question his commands and whether they are really necessary. You will be saved because you believed, because believers would obey the message.

Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, Col 2:12, Gal 3:27, Rom 6:1-7, 1 Peter 3:21 all prove that baptism is where: you get forgiveness of sins, the gift of Holy Spirit, you are saved, clothed in Christ, buried into his death and raised to walk in newness of life. We've already established that there is one gospel message for Jews and Gentiles alike and that there is also only one baptism for the new covenant Christian. All those things occur while the believer is being baptized in water. You can continue denying scripture and adding your own baptism of/by the Holy Spirit to these verses if you want, but have fun explaining it to God one day. I will pray for you!

d taylor
d taylor

Obviously you do not believe Christ gives eternal life to all who believe in Him for it.  You believe eternal life is given by baptism the problem there is,  not a single verse in the Bible  says that.

d taylor
d taylor

your explanation does not agree with the Bibles account.

You said (The Holy Spirit fell while Peter was still speaking, he a hadn't yet finished preaching to them.)

That is the way it is with receiving eternal life.  It is received at the moment a person believes that Christ is the giver of eternal life to all who will believe in Him for it.  There are no requirements like the sermon must be finished first, a person must walk a church aisle, a person must be baptised, a person must turn from their sins, a person must say a sinners prayer etc.. what ever you want to add to faith it is not a part of a person receiving eternal. After a person has believed (in a second of time) every amount of time after the person received eternal life is in the area of sanctification(up untill their death) then moving into the area of glorification.

r phillips
r phillips

First, as I have already explained, what happened to the household of Cornelius was a miraculous event. It was a sign from God that salvation was available even to the Gentiles. The Holy Spirit fell while Peter was still speaking, he a hadn't yet finished preaching to them. It was accompanied by miraculous signs such as speaking in tongues. It was an observable event. This was not the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which saves. That is an inward event that no one can see or observe. It was not a baptism for salvation. We know this because it fell upon all who heard the word. Peter had brought believers with him and the spirit poured upon them as well. After the spirit fell, Peter's words were "Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" (Acts 10:47 ESV). In Acts 8 the Ethiopian Eunich was preached the gospel and asked to be baptized as soon as they came upon water. So you see, water baptism was practiced for Jews and Gentiles alike. Water baptism was not exclusively for the Jews. It was practiced for ALL new covenant believers and it still applies to us today. There is only ONE BAPTISM for all believers, Jews or Gentiles, that is the baptism practiced under the New Covenant -- water baptism! Even if the verses don't state that the Gentiles in Acts are being baptized for the purpose of forgiveness of sins and the Holy Spirit we still know they only received one baptism from Eph 4:5 (because Ephesians was written to Gentiles), and we know they practiced water baptism. So you are still adding a baptism to the gospel. The bible states that there is one gospel for the both the Jew and the Greek "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek." (Romans 1:16 ESV). There is no biblical evidence that there is a separate gospel message for Jews and Gentiles. Galatians 3:27 states "For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ." And then in the very next verse goes on to say... "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." In Acts 2:38 when the Jews are commanded to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins Peter goes on to say "For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself." (Acts 2:39 ESV). In Ephesians two he describes the Gentiles as being 'those who are far off'... "But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ." (Ephesians 2:13 ESV). Jews and Greeks received the same gospel message and they received the same baptism.

d taylor
d taylor

Colossians 2:12 Having been buried with him in baptism, you also have been raised with him through your faith in the power  of God who raised him from the dead.

Where does any ideas of baptism being a work of God come from this verse. The verse actually says a believer is raised through their faith in God,  what it is saying is God raised Christ out of the grave so as believers we can be sure that because of our faith God will also raise us. 

d taylor
d taylor

you say (Eph 4:5 tells us there is only one baptism and we know baptism occurs in water in at least two of the conversions in acts therefore WATER baptism is the baptism which applies to the new covenant Christian.)

I am not adding a baptism what i am doing is saying there is a baptism of/by the Holy Spirit in the early church.  for Jewish believers(Jews who have received eternal life) water baptism was required this special group of people needed to repent and be baptized (water) for the "forgiveness of sins" AND to receive the Holy Spirit. That was God's requirement for them to be in fellowship with Him. It was only true at a particular time (the transitional time from the Old to the New Testament) and only for a certain group of people. You never see it among Gentile believers even at that time in history.

water baptism in Acts the early Jewish Believers are required to undergo  baptism not for receiving eternal life but as a part of their coming out of Judaism and for being a part of the sin of the blasphemy of the holy spirit

The unique setting of Acts 22:16. Luke records the conversion account of Saul three times in Acts (Acts 9, 22, 26). However, only once did Luke relate Ananias's demand for baptism with the washing away of sins. It is significant that the single occurrence was before a Jewish crowd in the Temple area in Jerusalem. Accordingly, the same general audience which heard Acts 2:38 also heard Acts 22:16. People who believe in salvation by baptism  failed to find a single defender of this view who produced a passage in Acts which addresses Gentiles with a demand to be baptized with the specific purpose of receiving the forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. The Gentile Cornelius, in Acts 10, is promised the forgiveness of sins upon believing, and receives the Holy Spirit before he was baptized. There is nothing in Acts to contradict this as a pattern for Gentiles.   Neither Acts 2:38 nor 22:16 is binding today. They are unique to the first century Palestinian. Only in this way can we take 2:38 and 22:16 at face value and yet avoid contradicting the Gospel of justification by grace through faith alone

r phillips
r phillips

Good thing baptism is a work of God through faith and not the work of the law! (Col 2:12)

Steve
Steve

"nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of [fn]the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of [fn]the Law; since by the works of [fn]the Law no [fn]flesh will be justified." Gal 2:16

Steve
Steve

"nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified." Galatians 2:16

r phillips
r phillips

Holy Spirit baptism were two isolated, miraculous events which were accompanied by miraculous signs such as speaking in tongues. You are adding a baptism to the gospel by insisting these verses refer to Holy Spirit baptism. Eph 4:5 tells us there is only one baptism and we know baptism occurs in water in at least two of the conversions in acts therefore WATER baptism is the baptism which applies to the new covenant Christian.

You are right these verses are not telling believers how to receive eternal life but describing in further detail the event in which they got it. Describing how they became united with Christ and his death. How they were clothed with Christ. Raised to walk in newness of life. Dead to sin. They are describing their baptisms! Their ONE baptism in water!

d taylor
d taylor

Galatatians 3:27, Colossians 2:12  and Romans 6:1-7 are Holy Spirit baptisms

Again i say you are taking verses out of context and linking them together to make a point (that you believe baptism is added to belief to receive eternal life). all the verses are from letters that are to people who are already believers. So these letters are addressing the areas of the believers life like discipleship, obedience, repentance , also some of the letters are addressing believers that are wanting to return to their former practice of Judaism   They are not telling believers what they must do to have eternal life.   I do not deny that there is a comand to be baptised.  i just deny that it is required for a person to receive eternal life.  

r phillips
r phillips like.author.displayName 1 Like

Did you read what I wrote before coming up with a defense? If you had, you would know that I was contrasting the contexts in Acts with the context in Galatians. In Acts 2 we read about the baptism of the Holy Spirit, as evidenced by miraculous signs such as speaking in tongues. Galatians, Colossians, and Romans are all referring to Christian baptism (in water). The only reason I brought up Acts 2 and Acts 10,11 was to make the point that the baptism of the Holy Spirit was a miraculous event limited to those two instances and not available to all Chrisians. Water baptism, however was practiced under the New Covenant and we know from Eph 4:5 there is only one baptism for the New Covenant believer, therefore all of these verses reference water baptism. I don't understand why you are belaboring the point that these books were written to believers as if that somehow changes the points I made. The authors of these passages are speaking of baptism in the *past tense* these are not instructional verses but rather they explain what happened to the believer during their baptism in further detail. Clothed with Christ, buried into Christ's death, raised to walk in newness of life... Obviously baptism was a pivotal point in these believers lives. Also disciple is just a fancy word for follower of Christ, in other words a Christian. So Matt 28:19 is absolutely speaking about spreading the gospel to unbelievers.

d taylor
d taylor

Galatatians 3:27, Colossians 2:12, and Romans 6:1-7 this is the problem you are linking verses together along with Acts 2 and 10 what does Galatatians have to do with whats going on in Acts.  Galatatians is written by Paul to again believers    Galatatians 1:1 From Paul, an apostle (not from men, nor by human agency, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised him from the dead) 1:2 and all the brothers with me, to the churches of Galatia. 1:3 Grace and peace to you from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ,   in defence of the faith based gospel,   Galatatians  1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are following a different gospel – 1:7 not that there really is another gospel, but there are some who are disturbing you and wanting to distort the gospel of Christ.

Look at Matthew 28:19 the verse is speaking about making disciples (the word disciples is right in the verse) not giving unbelievers the gospel so they may have eternal life. This is a verse speaking about making disciples and baptism is connected with that area of a believers life after they have believed in Christ for eternal life to become a disciple now requires a believer being baptised.

r phillips
r phillips

Galatatians 3:27, Colossians 2:12, and Romans 6:1-7 all speak of baptism in the past tense as the point in which the believer became unified with Christ. We know this is referring to water baptism for two reasons: the baptism of the Holy Spirit only occurs twice in the NT (Acts 2 and Acts 10,11) and was evidenced by miraculous signs such as speaking in tongues. This was also not a salvific baptism but rather a miraculous sign from God. Two: Ephesians 4:5 tells us plainly there is only one baptism (relevant to the New Covenant Christian). We know water baptism was practiced under the New Covenant, therefore it must be water baptism. Another point to consider is the fact that baptism is a command (Matt 28:19, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16) whereas the baptism of the Holy Spirit is an involuntary experience that happens to the believer. You can't be commanded to do something which happens to you involuntarily. Therefore baptism in these verses must be interpreted as water baptism.

d taylor
d taylor

The peope who try to make baptism a part of a person receiving eternal life,  always use verses from the Bible that are not addressing a person receiving eternal life(salvation from hell), but those verses are for the discipleship area of a belivers life. just take 1 Peter what is one of the first things Peter writes in this letter  1:1 From Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those temporarily residing abroad (in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, the province of Asia, and Bithynia) who are chosen 1:2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father by being set apart by the Spirit for obedience and for sprinkling with Jesus Christ’s blood. May grace and peace be yours in full measure!  These letters are to believers addressing discipleship these letters are not to unbelievers the same can be said of James, Hebrews, etc.. Most of the New Testament is for believers and their life of discipleship.

r phillips
r phillips like.author.displayName 1 Like

@Mark Lamprecht also read the below articles explaining why baptism, unless the context suggests otherwise, should always be interpreted in the bible as a physical immersion in water. Ephesians 4:5 states there is only one baptism for the believer. We know by reading the conversions in Acts that immersion in water was practiced by New Covenant Christians. We know the baptism of the Holy Spirit was only seen twice in Acts 2 (apostles) and in Acts 10 (household of Cornelius) and was accompanied by miraculous signs. Therefore, baptism for the believer is ones physical immersion in water. Explain Romans 6:1-6, 1 Peter 3:21, Colossians 2:12, Galations 3:27, et al. under the faith only doctrine without changing the context to make it a "spiritual baptism" rather than a physical immersion in water. You can't do it! The issue is twofold: the incorrect categorization of baptism as "works" and the incorrect interpretation of baptism as being a spiritual baptism apart from ones immersion in water. The events are simultaneous. The bible says we are saved by faith, but it never says we are saved by faith alone. You are adding that to the verses you quote, whether intentionally or not, to make it say something it doesn't. Read through the conversions in Acts. If it were a "public proclamation of faith" as many baptists say that it is... then why were these converts baptized immediately? Sometimes in the middle of the night? They did not wait a month for "baptism Sunday" they did not wait to invite their friends and family. They did not even wait to do it before the whole church. They did it immediately, as soon as they understood and believed the message, with a sense or urgency. Paul was also still in his sins after meeting Jesus on the road to Damascus and was ordered three days later to "be baptized for the forgiveness of his sins". If he were saved by faith alone his sins should have been forgiven the moment he believed. Alas, he was still in his sins three days later.

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1498-do-romans-6-3-4-and-galatians-3-26-27-refer-to-spirit-baptism
http://s8int.com/saved2.html

r phillips
r phillips

@d taylorSo baptism can't be necessary for salvation because it wasn't mentioned in 2 verses in the book of John? Ever heard of hermeneutics? What did the sign above Jesus' cross at his crucifixion read?

Mark 15:26: The inscription of the charge against Him read, “THE KING OF THE JEWS.”

Luke 23:38: Now there was also an inscription above Him, “THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.”

Matthew 27:37: And above His head they put up the charge against Him which read, “THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.”

John 19:19: Pilate also wrote an inscription and put it on the cross. It was written, “JESUS THE NAZARENE, THE KING OF THE JEWS.”

So does the bible contradict itself or can we conclude that each account included information that was deemed important, but no isolated account contains ALL of the information. In the same way there is no isolated verse that you can point to that tells us what is necessary for salvation. Yes there are many verses that talk about faith saving us but it NEVER says "faith alone" saves us. Additionally there are many verses which speak of baptism as giving us the holy spirit, forgiving us our sins, clothing us in Christ, uniting us with his death, and saving us!

d taylor
d taylor

From the book Confident in Christ:  The Gospel of John, which was written after the birth of the church to tell church age people how they might have eternal life (born again) John 20: 30-31 does not even contain the word baptism while the verb form to baptize does appear none of its occurrences suggest baptismal regeneration although in contrast the word believe occurs 99 times when a condition for receving eternal life.

r phillips
r phillips like.author.displayName 1 Like

You're right there is a difference in the way Luther taught baptism and the way the bible teaches baptism and ironically Martin Luther taught it as more of an actual work than the bible and the CoC does even though he was so opposed to 'works'Mostly I was just wondering why you insist on lumping baptism in with works and saying if baptism is necessary for salvation it is a works based salvation. The only time works is used in the bible in connection to baptism it is defined as a work of God. Well if nothing happens to the believer during baptism then why is it a work of God??

r phillips
r phillips like.author.displayName 1 Like

There is not a single verse that says we are saved by faith alone. There are many verses that speak of our faith saving us, yes, but it never once says 'alone'. There are also verses that say repentance saves, confession saves, and... wouldn't you know it... baptism saves. In fact, the only time the phrase "faith alone" or "faith only" shows up in the bible it clearly states that we are NOT justified by faith alone in James 2.

d taylor
d taylor

The truth of this is indisputable when we consider that baptisma is often used figuratively in the New Testament. Authors of scripture quote Jesus five times referring to His approaching death as a baptism which He dreaded (Luke 12:50  Matthew 20:22,23 etc..  )  Paul also speaks of a figurative use of the word baptize with the nation of Israel being baptized into Moses. It was the Egyptians who got wet not the Israelites. So the basic sense of the term, a sense which includes both figurative and literal uses, is "to identify with,""to be placed into," or "to be immersed in."   The context must reveal whether the usage is figurative or literal and what it is that one is being identified with, placed into, or immersed in.

d taylor
d taylor

From the book  Confident in Christ:  Anyway the word baptism does not mean immersion in water the term itself doesn't refer either to sprinkling or immersion in water. The noun baptisma, translated or actually transliterated baptism most often refers not to Christian baptism, but to the baptism of John. And, even when baptisma does refer to Christian water baptism, it is not the designation baptisma all by itself which tells us this. It is only when immersion in water is indicated in the context that we conclude that water baptism is in view. 

d taylor
d taylor

i am going to breal up reply into short post

well baptism is not faith,  so if it is not faith then it must be a work. Faith is trust, if i told you tomorrow i will give you $1000.00,  you either believe my promise or you do not, their is no middle ground nothing else needs to be added to you believeing my statement. Just like Gods statement that whoever believes in Christ for eternal life is given it. unlike my promise where i may or may not give you a $1000.00 dollars tomorrow. Gods promise of eternal life  is 100% true/trustworthy. no way a person can spin it faith is not baptism, obedience, etc.... 

d taylor
d taylor

can not get my post to post tried this short message to see if it would post

Mark Lamprecht
Mark Lamprecht moderator

@r phillipsYou can't lump Luther's doctrine of baptism in with that of CoC folks. Luther taught sola fide while the material I quoted denied sola fide. The pamphlet I quoted even said that one who holds to faith alone should be re-baptized while conscientiously receiving salvation - I guess to make sure it takes?

Again, the whole point of my post was to clearly show that the Duck Dynasty folks' church clearly teaches in contradiction to what Protestants hold too. Especially, in mind are Southern Baptists, since I am one and since that seems to be the majority denomination the DD folks are promoted by.

d taylor
d taylor

Mark thanks for the reply. I was just hoping someone had not sabotage the site.

d taylor
d taylor

what happened to all the comments on this post

Mark Lamprecht
Mark Lamprecht

Hi d, my apologies for the missing comments. They still exist, but are hidden right now until the Disqus comment system completes the import. It is taking much longer than expected and I'm thinking of nuking the whole idea.

Kathy George
Kathy George

All speculation, haven't heard anything of the kind come from the DD guys.

d taylor
d taylor

He has (in the story he tells on this youtube clip) this person come all the way from Alabama to be baptized, He refers to this as the gospel. This person he was talking to could have been given the gospel over the phone no need for him to drive 3 hours to hear the gospel unless he believes that baptism is part of receiving eternal life.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=DApqTMJYGMU

 

ShawneleShawSurplus
ShawneleShawSurplus like.author.displayName 1 Like

@d taylorThat's what Philip believed: Actas 8:35 Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus. 36 As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water. What can stand in the way of my being baptized?”

The "good news about Jesus" includes teaching baptism. 

d taylor
d taylor

 @ShawneleShawSurplus@d taylorI am not saying that a believer should not be baptized. I am saying that is part of the sanctification area of a believers life. Not part of them receiving eternal life.  

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