Friday Favorites 08/20

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  • Teens and Porn: 10 Stats You Need to Know – The results of a survey filled out by several hundred college students to help researchers understand how prevalent exposure to pornography was among adolescents.
  • A Doe and her Twins – Victoria shares some wonderful pictures of young deer from her backyard.
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tagged as in Culture

{ 9 comments… read them below or add one }

1 Mark Bainter August 20, 2010 at 2:01 pm

Hmmm. There are a lot of links here jM. Did you actually read all of them? In particular, did you read the one on Beth Moore? I haven’t finished reading the whole thing, but so far it’s really ridiculous. I’m having trouble understanding why you would give it the credibility of linking to it from here.

A couple key examples for me would be the section on authority over a man, where she criticizes Beth for publicly stating she does not intend to do that, in regards to any men who may have chosen to attend her public speaking engagement.

Then she has the unmitigated gall to question Beth Moore’s choices in regards to her abuse and the prosecution of her attacker. But then she says this:

Moore shows some disdain for theology, as seminaries have portrayed it. She is primarily self-taught and believes that Scripture needs to teach Scripture. Although she uses commentaries in her preparation, she claims to use her intuition for applying Scripture.
For the most part, she does stay within orthodox Christianity. However, she could benefit from the history of the development of the doctrine within the church as well as the years of careful scholarship by great theologians to help her guard against heresy and poor exegesis.

Really? The only people who can do real biblical study are people who have gone to seminary? That’s the only valid definition of theology? Apparently this author isn’t paying any attention to what’s going on in our seminaries.

There are valid reasons to be wary of Beth’s ministry, but there’s no reasoned discussion of those (generally minor) concerns here. Frankly, I find a whole lot more that is disturbing and wrong about that blog entry (and those commenting, who are even worse) than I do anything in Beth’s ministry currently.

2 Mark August 20, 2010 at 2:14 pm

Mark,

I did read the Beth Moore article. I thought it interesting, but that doesn’t mean I endorse every word in every article. Honestly, I did struggle with linking the Moore article.

It was unfair to attack Moore for her stance on her abuser as well as her adopted child. At the same time, the writer seems to be an egalitarian who seems to criticize Moore for not admitting to being an egalitarian while at the same time teaching men. I think I have that right.

I thought the author was warning Moore not to discount a seminary education while critiquing her position of intuition hermeneutics.

Anyway, you’re point is well taken and maybe I’ll remove the link.

Thanks, I’m thinking….

3 Mark August 20, 2010 at 2:26 pm

Upon further consideration of my brother Mark Bainter’s words above, I have removed the link to an article critiquing Beth Moore. I’m sure you can find it if you try hard enough. Though there are some valid issues raised, ultimately, it was not a wholly charitable and edifying critique, IMO. I apologize for even linking to it.

4 Dee August 20, 2010 at 2:55 pm

Hi Mark and Mark

It’s me, Dee, from over at TWW. Thank you for allowing me this opportunity to comment.I would like to clear up a few issues. The comments on Moore’s theology are a synopsis from the article in Christianity Today. Go after the writers there if you disagree.

Secondly, I do not believe that one needs a seminary education in order to teach. I believe that she could benefit from some of the teachings of orthodox Christianity that have been fleshed out by great theologians throughout the ages, some of whom are studied in seminaries. This also was taken from CT.

Mark, number two, you got my intention. I am not much into the
intuition” game and like to see accurate Biblical exposition. Also, I think seminary education can be of benefit and should not be looked upon disparagingly. For the record, I did not go to seminary so this isn’t personal.Obviously, there are good seminaries and bad seminaries but I bet Moore and the two of you know which is which and would choose to go to one of the good ones.

I am sorry that you disagree with my position that it is wise to report pedophiles who have molested you. When they go unreported, they go on molesting and hurt many, many people. The average pedophile molests over 100 kids before he is caught and incarcerated. Secondly, it is reasonable to assume that Moore’s monster molested others and those folks may be suffering in silence. Since Moore has overcome her strongholds in this area (self stated), I was hoping that she might be strong enough to help other victims of the same molester.I made my request in the form of a plea to Moore.This is neither a judgement nor a demand.Please read stopbaptistpredators.com for more information on this horrible issue.

I am neither egalitarian or complementarian. I don’t do boxes very well. I believe in radical servanthood, one to another.I don’t really care if Moore is teaching men nor do I feel she has to give an explanation or apology if some guy is sitting in her audience. I have a very high view of the male sex and believe that men can decided whether or not they should be sitting in her lectures.

Finally, I am am mother. Moore brought up the issue of her adopted son. I did not.She brought it up in a large public venue, not in a tea house with a few close friends. She gave a brief explanation and asked her audience “to understand.” I don’t. It is reasonable to ask for clarification.Frankly, it is rather shocking that someone would choose to give away a son after 7 years.If a secular politician, like Nancy Pelosi, had done something similar, the Christian tongues would have been wagging in a most disapproving fashion.I am asking for clarification, not demanding.

I hope this helps. Please ask me for any further clarifications. I am not a perfect communicator but my intentions stem from a real desire to pursue the faith.

In His glorious name
Your sister in Christ, Dee

5 Mark Bainter August 20, 2010 at 3:22 pm

Unfortunately Dee, your individual words above do not exist in a vacuum. Your entire post was prejudicial from the beginning. I do think there are some issues with Beth Moore’s teaching, but I think that has to be handled by taking those specific issues and addressing them in the light of Scripture.

Obviously, the life of a teacher is important in considering their words. However, we need to be careful that our analysis of this is approached properly so that the things we write do not become little more than a gossip column.

Frankly, if Christianity Today asked to interview me, I’d be hesitant as well. I don’t trust reporters and with good reason, and I trust CT even less. I understand the statistic you’re claiming (though I don’t know its source, or its validity.). However, as you yourself say, you are /assuming/ this went on after. You do not know what has transpired regarding her attacker, or that he is a threat to anyone else. In contrast to your assertions I think it’s reasonable to assume that if she were reasonably convinced that other people were being hurt that she would try to do something about it. Whatever errors she may fall into, being callous and heartless to the suffering of others doesn’t seem to be one of them.

Are there valid criticisms of her teaching? Absolutely. But your blog post did little to contribute to a charitable and edifying discussion of that issue. Indeed, a short perusal of the comment thread of your blog is a ready demonstration of what kind of discussion it has promoted. I don’t see that your post here reflects the attitude we are instructed to have towards such situations in Ephesians 4 and Colossians 3.

You touched on some of those valid issues, but they need to be raised in a way that encourages prayerful consideration and discussion where everyone continues to recognize that Beth is still a *person*, a woman who was created in the Image of God to glorify and worship Him, and from all indications a sister in Christ to boot.

6 Dee August 20, 2010 at 4:17 pm

I want to thank you for your thoughtful and loving comments. I find them so interesting that I plan to comment on them on our blog in the near future. We have a goodly sized readership so you may get some hits after I publish.

I will say that I am deeply saddened on your thoughts of the excellent Christianity Today which has done much to carefully document the issues in evangelical Christianity. However, it does help me to see why the evangelical church and the SBC is shattering into so many splinter groups and why silly movements like Hipster Christianity are on the rise. We are all careful to stay in our happy little groups where we all think exactly alike (and I am not talking about the essentials of the faith here).

I wonder what heaven will be like when we all finally have to get along. Praise be to God for His ability to one day perfect us and make us all one.I wish it could be so here.

I commend you for the naming of your blog. As you can tell, we are admirers of Martin Luther over at the Wartburg. May God bless your journey in the kingdom of the blog.

7 Mark Bainter August 20, 2010 at 4:47 pm

First, allow me to clarify that I am just a reader of Mark’s blog. We just happen to share the same first name. Say what you will about me, just don’t lay the responsibility for my words on him. 🙂

Dee, Christianity Today has done a lot more than report on trends, it has uncritically given a platform and a voice to damaging and dangerous ones. For a very long time it has had little if any discernment in the things that it publishes. It seems odd to me that you would have such a strong commitment to it while simultaneously criticizing Beth Moore for theological liberality.

I’m not sure I understand what you’re getting at regarding splinter groups. I don’t think anywhere I wrote anything recommending that. I only made the point that there are certain attributes that are supposed to characterize us in our life and conversation and that from where I sit, this blog post of yours fell short of that mark. I even pointed out that despite any disagreements you or I have with some aspects of Beth Moore’s theology, I’m not aware of any that would require us to break fellowship with her – and that raises the standards for how we interact with her and her teaching even further.

Let me make a specific example here… Are you aware that she has been criticized in the past for assuming teaching authority over men, in contrast with the biblical command to the contrary? She then takes that criticism and tries to do something good with it in declaring what her intentions are when she speaks to a mixed audience. In response to this, in your post you twisted this into some statement on biblical authority that was in no way charitable to what she actually said, or to her intent. Do you believe that God was honored by that?

8 Dee August 20, 2010 at 10:58 pm

Hi Mark Bainter

I believe God is honored when anyone seeks to understand His Word and His people. You seem to be a man who seeks after God’s heart. Perhaps you can help me with a question that I have. I truly do not know what it means to speak in such a way that it mans that I have authority over a man. I have just returned from consulting with a seminarian at a Baptist seminary. He could not answer my question but is going to do some research. Assume I am in a mixed group and I say “David should not have had an affair with Bathsheba”. I have been in Beth Moore’s position many times. How do I say that sentence with or without “authority?”

Secondly, I do not care if a man walks into a room when I am teaching. I respect his free will to do as he sees fit. I do not control him nor am I in charge of his relationship with Christ. I believe this for both men and women. So, if I spot a man in the room, what do you think I should do?

I respect your comments and I know that you feel that my blog post fell short of the mark. Others would vehemently disagree with you. That is what makes a provocative post. It causes us to think and challenge one another. Otherwise, we just read those who completely agree with us and the blog serves to be just another huddle of the likeminded.

I assume you and your blogging friend Mark march lockstep. Why would he remove my post when you expressed concern? For some, controversy is uncomfortable. but that’s OK, we are all cut from a different cloth. I allow all sorts of comments on my blog. Why not? It shows the thinking out there and once again, I think truth trumps someone’s feelings getting hurt. besides which, in Christian circles, someone’s feelings are always getting hurt and being nice is not the primary point anyway.

I love Christianity Today even if I disagree with some articles. I actually believe that we can exists within the body of Christ while disagreeing over secondary issues. And sometimes, I find that something I believed a long time ago has changes. Not the essentials, mind you. The secondary issues such as the timing of Christ’s return.

Now some folks out there raise secondary issues to primo importance and therefore cannot abide with anyone who disagrees with them. I am surprised that you cannot see the importance of such a magazine but surprise is the spice of life.

I guess I love to see honest disagreement that does not give up on the essentials of the faith. And so, brother, we disagree. But wish you and your blogging buddy a sense of God’s marvelous grace this weekend. See you around the blogosphere. Blessings.

9 Mark Bainter August 21, 2010 at 1:09 am

I believe God is honored when anyone seeks to understand His Word and His people.

So – are you saying that you don’t believe that Ephesians 4 and Colossians 3 are binding on our behavior? That God is not concerned about the manner in which we deal with each other?

Perhaps you can help me with a question that I have. I truly do not know what it means to speak in such a way that it mans that I have authority over a man.

That is just one half of the issue, and it’s easier to understand when you consider it in context. 1 Tim 2:12 says “But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.” Exercising authority can happen on its own, but is also nearly inextricably bound up in teaching, particularly in the context of the church. This is why Mrs Moore is going out of her way to indicate that is not her desire, but as you have noted, is not going to force men to leave. Where they voluntarily seek to hear what she has to say when she is at a conference that is their choice. The main issue is in this text is really that she is not to be put in a position where men won’t have that choice and still remain obedient to God’s calling of the church to gather in worship. Nothing she said is at all bound up in whether or not God’s Word itself is authoritative.

So, if I spot a man in the room, what do you think I should do?

Unfortunately, this is not a question with a clear-cut universal answer. It depends on the nature of the class, the context of it (local church? Conference?), the topic (exegetical teaching, good financial management, basket weaving, what-have-you), the teachings of the church in question and thus the expectations of men in the classroom, etc. Of course, none of that really matters at all unless you are convinced by Scripture of God’s purpose for the order he instituted in creation.

I respect your comments and I know that you feel that my blog post fell short of the mark. Others would vehemently disagree with you. That is what makes a provocative post.

Perhaps. But as Christians is it our goal to generate controversy and heat? Or is it to edify and bring light? It seems to me that we should be shooting rather higher than just “provocative”.

It causes us to think and challenge one another. Otherwise, we just read those who completely agree with us and the blog serves to be just another huddle of the likeminded.

I read plenty of blogs that have both content I do and don’t agree with, but which do so while striving to be charitable to others. That doesn’t mean not calling people out in their error, but it does mean being very careful to do so according to the nature of their error, and in accordance with the manner in which Christ has instructed us to behave towards those who stray:
“But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels. The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.”

I assume you and your blogging friend Mark march lockstep. Why would he remove my post when you expressed concern? For some, controversy is uncomfortable. but that’s OK, we are all cut from a different cloth.

No…we definitely do not. We agree on a lot of things, but IIRC, not everything. (If I’m wrong, I’m sure it’s only a matter of time before I say something stupid he disagrees with. I might not even make it through this comment!) If you read what he wrote, you’ll find that he removed my post not because I expressed concern, but because in considering the concerns I raised he found them to be valid.

I guarantee you Mark is not afraid of controversy, and I think he would likely tell you that I am not either. I don’t particularly enjoy or relish it, but I won’t back down from it when it comes to God’s truth either.

I allow all sorts of comments on my blog. Why not? It shows the thinking out there and once again, I think truth trumps someone’s feelings getting hurt.

True, where the offense is only because of truth. But we are not to put stumbling blocks in the way of others through our lack of concern for them. Remember, we speak the truth in love.

Now some folks out there raise secondary issues to primo importance and therefore cannot abide with anyone who disagrees with them. I am surprised that you cannot see the importance of such a magazine but surprise is the spice of life.

You’re right, I can’t. In fact, what I see is the danger of it, popularizing heresy and error and putting it in the hands of Christians everywhere who are often then led astray by this. Yes, I see this as a net negative. We’re not talking about secondary issues here, we’re talking about issues as core as the very nature of God.

I guess I love to see honest disagreement that does not give up on the essentials of the faith. And so, brother, we disagree.

Somehow I think you’re missing the point here. I don’t have a problem with you having a disagreement with Beth Moore or her teachings. As I’ve stated, I do as well. What I have taken issue with is the manner in which you went about it.

.

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