Horner vs DeMar on Endtimes, Israel, Replacement Theology

This is part of the Grace Reformation Church Forum 2008.

Topic – Orthodoxy:Unity and Diversity in the Midst of Christ’s Church

Introduction of Saturday Speakers

Dr. Barry Horner on Matthew 24 – Is it Future or Fulfilled

Dr. Gary DeMar on Matthew 24 – Is it Future or Fulfilled

Matthew 24 Forum

Dr. Gary DeMar on Replacement Theology, Promises Fulfilled, or Future Israel?

Dr. Barry Horner on Replacement Theology, Promises Fulfilled, or Future Israel?

There is also a session on baptism.  Tom Schreiner vs. David VanDuren. (HT to JT)

For what it’s worth…

Mark

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{ 14 comments… read them below or add one }

1 ABClay December 5, 2008 at 9:22 am

Hey Mark,

I was excited to get these on my ipod but the link didn’t work for me. Am I a dolt?

Thanks,

Anthony

2 johnMark December 5, 2008 at 9:29 am

Anthony,

I won’t speak to whether or not you’re a dolt. 😉 However, I had the links messed up, but they are now fixed.

I think Horner is very UNFAIR [correct] in his representations of the amill position. Such a broad brush and really misses the position. He continues to call it replacement theology. And says thinks about how he loves Jewish people as if the amiller’s don’t.

Enjoy!

Mark

3 ABClay December 5, 2008 at 10:00 am

Thanks for fixing that.

How could amillers not love Jews? Aren’t all Christians Jews?

ABClay

4 Pete Stanton December 10, 2008 at 4:30 pm

Thank you so much for making these available, I was hoping they would be somewhere on the net and here they are.

Mark, I would assume most Christians are gentiles, not Jews (John 10:16)

God bless

5 johnMark December 15, 2008 at 10:58 am

Pete,

I’m glad that pointing folks to these audio files was helpful.

What did you think about presentations? Where to you fall among the two positions?

Thanks,

Mark

6 Pete December 15, 2008 at 12:36 pm

Hello Mark

Sorry my last comments (John 10:16) were in response to ABClay, I mixed up posters.

Anyway, thanks again, I have listened to them all now and my position is leaning towards Demar. I have been premil for most of my life but in the last year or so I have been researching with an open mind and have changed a lot of my thoughts concerning Matt 24-end times etc.

I tend to adopt partial preterism with a measure of uncertainty, though I reject full preterism.

I remain open minded towards the current state of Israel though I very much believe that Israel is the church along with the gentiles. I reject replacement theolgy and the idea that all christians are jews.

I’m a mixed bag and believe neither side is totally correct.

One thing I am pleased about is that the Hal Lindseys/Tim L’hayes of the prophetic world are being exposed.

Thanks again

Take care
Pete

7 johnMark December 15, 2008 at 1:08 pm

Pete,

One thing that bothered me about Horner’s incorrect accusations are that some of them came after DeMar stated his positions.

I also thought Horner’s exegesis was terrible on the point that we are all one in Christ being no more Jews or Greeks, etc.

Thanks for stopping by.

Mark

8 Pete December 15, 2008 at 1:44 pm

Yes I noticed how Horner sidetracked in his response to Demar on the ‘replacement’ debate. Its as if he hadnt listened to a word Demar had said. It was pretty blatant.

Horner debunked doctrines that Demar didnt even adhere too even after Demar has plainly stated his position, I have found this to be standard practice in discussions I have had with dispensationalist.

Ah well,one day we will all get the full story.

Overall, I found them both to be graceful and able but Demar topped it.

9 ABClay December 15, 2008 at 2:21 pm

Pete,
Yes I agree that physically we are mostly Gentiles.

I was speaking from a Romans 3 and 11 perspective.

“A jew is not one who is outwardly circumcised…”

Grace and Peace,

ABClay

10 Richard March 23, 2009 at 6:03 am

ABClay. This is a very disturbing statement which seems to trivilise the suffering Jewish people have suffered at the hands of Christians!

“How could amillers not love Jews? Aren’t all Christians Jews?”

also when Paul writes “A jew is not one who is outwardly circumcised…” all he is saying is that there was always a spiritual side to being Jewish, he is not saying that Gentiles are the real Jews instead!

11 Chris Poe March 25, 2009 at 11:29 am

This reminds me that I need to listen to these messages. I want to listen to the baptism debate as well.

I think that Horner does make some good points and also that his presentation sometimes leaves something to be desired. I haven’t finished “Future Israel” and am still up in the air on eschatology, although I am moving further and further away from the amil position I held for several years.

If nothing else, Horner has proved that the historic premillenialism of Spurgeon, Bonar and Ryle isn’t the same as that of Ladd, which is what many people have simply assumed. Bonar and the others believed there would be a physical restoration of the Jews to the land, and none were dispensational or pre trib.

12 johnMark March 25, 2009 at 2:37 pm

Chris,

I’d like to hear what you think about Horner’s positions. I really think he ignored what was explained to him concerning DeMar’s positions.

That happens so often by dispies.

Mark

13 Chris Poe March 25, 2009 at 4:17 pm

I’ll have to listen to the message. But my guess is that if he didn’t specifically respond to DeMar it is because his concern is less with Gary DeMar than with just having an opportunity to combat what he sees as “replacement theology” as a whole and getting his message out.

From what I’ve seen, Horner also may not have firm views on some issues like the timing of the rapture either. Israel’s future is the key to him, not those details. His view is probably somewhere in between the 19th Century historic premils like Spurgeon and progressive dispensationalism.

I did look in on the MCTS lectures by Dr. Waldron and think that they probably didn’t convince anyone who wasn’t already leaning that way.

I’m trying to finally finish Dr. Russell Moore’s “Kingdom of Christ” which surveys changes among both some dispensationalists as well as some covenantal amils regarding their conception of the Kingdom of God.

14 L May 11, 2011 at 12:38 pm

I attended this debate, and was shocked.

I came in knowing nothing about either side or either man, and I had no position either way other than believing God’s word and looking for truth.

What I saw was a gentile and humble man calling for the obvious and plain meaning of scripture and using the scripture as the basis for his beliefs. Scripture that refers to “everlasting covenants” and the like.

Then there was Gary DeMar. He walked out when Mr. Horner was speaking, and when I approached him after the conference to try and better understand his position as far as what those verses that say “forever” “for all time” “for all generations” etc actually mean in his understanding, he was one of the rudest and most obnoxious man I’ve ever encountered. In fact, I kept telling myself I must be imagining it, that he couldn’t possibly be aware of what he was saying and doing, and gave him more chances. He didn’t do any better. He whined that Dr. Horner had a whole book he wrote “Future Israel” and all he (Gary) had was some notes.

.

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