Is T.D. Jakes Now Trinitarian?

I BELIEVE IN 2CORT. 5: 17 WE ALL NEED TO FORGET ABOUT YESTERDAY, OUR MAIN FOCUSES NEED TO BE ON THE FUTURE REMEMBER THAT " A MEN CAN DO 1000 GOOD BUT ONE DAY MAY BE BY MISTAKE HE/SHE MAY DID 1 BAD THING ONLY MAY CAUSE HIS DIE" I ALWAYS THANK GOD FOR WHO HE IS BECAUSE THERE IS NO ONE LIKE HIM EVER FOREVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I like that Minister Perry. Your posts have always been kind and non-judgmental. "Out of the mouth of babes". God Bless.

I have just heard the most interesting apologetic. A four year old girl today was asked. Who is Jesus? She replied, Jesus is God's Son. Who is the Holy Spirit then? She smiled and said that " The Holy Spirit is God because Jesus had to leave this earth so he could make a place for us, but he left his Spirit here to help if we need him in times of trouble. Her pastor father was pleased and then said well who is God? And the little girl replied We were just talking about him? No wonder Jesus said "suffer the little children to come unto me." Let us lay down our weapons of wit and wisdom, and come to know that God is in control, and the eternal complexities that confound us, divides us. Love God and Love one another. Let God give you true wisdom. A portion he gives to each as they make their private journey with him. God's Peace.

Just a few questions to Pastor Camp in regards to his interpretation of Col 2:9. Is the Godhead and the Trinity to be considered the same?And could we say then that, in Jesus is the fullness of the Trinity? And does this mean in Jesus dwells Father, Son and Holy Ghost?

And Mark, thank you for your time. I enjoyed our discussion. God Bless

To Mark and all,

I leave it at this then:

1Co 13:9 Now our knowledge is partial and incomplete, and even the gift of prophecy reveals only part of the whole picture!
1Co 13:10 But when the time of perfection comes, these partial things will become useless.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spoke and thought and reasoned as a child. But when I grew up, I put away childish things.
1Co 13:12 Now we see things imperfectly , like puzzling reflections in a mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity. All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God now knows me completely.
1Co 13:13 Three things will last forever—faith, hope, and love—and the greatest of these is love.

God Bless and Love All!

Jason,

Sorry, it was no trap, but a way to show your violation of your own standards. You are playing a semantic game which I'm not interested in playing. You could allegedly prove or disprove just about anything using your seemingly wooden-literal translation of words in opposition to concepts.

As I've shown in just one instance that you cannot find the phrase "Jesus is God" in the Bible it does mean the Bible does not teach that Jesus is God. Nor does it negate that this is Who Christians understand Jesus to be.

My question asking 'Who is God?' is not to question generally who He is, but to ask who is "God" in terms of the English word being used since the word "God" was never written in Scripture.

You say you have not been answered yet I can read Pastor Camp's replies above showing answering aspects of the doctrine of the Trinity. Given that and your reference to Rev. 22:18-19 I am not sure what explanation you would find acceptable. If we take those verses in the literal sense which you seem to be advocating then we're all in trouble with our English translations because we have to add words for the text for proper syntax.

I don't have time at the moment to get into many more details, but it seems you should know what Trinitarians believe and why based on your familiarity with some of the above positions.

For now, I offer you Matt Slick's article - The word Trinity is not found in the Bible and Kevin DeYoung's recent article - The Doctrine of the Trinity: No Christianity Without It.

Mark,

You are right. I fell into that one quite nicely, good job. The Scripturally correct answer to your question should have been be, I believe that...in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily, and ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power, in accordance to Colossians 2:9-10. Thank you for keeping me accountable.

Now my wish is for you to do the same. Are you saying in your statement "I also believe Jesus is God as is the Father and Holy Spirit existing in three separate, distinct Persons none of whom is a manifestation of the other." that you believe Jesus is God separate and distinct, the Father is God separate and distinct, and the Holy Spirit is God separate and distinct? Is this not three Gods? Explain please. And does this not violate Colossians 2:9? Explain please.

And to answer your question, "who is God?" I think Matthew 1:23 answers it.

Also Father, Son, Holy Spirit, and God are titles not names. The only NT name that I see in Scripture is Jesus.

What "standards" do you go by when referencing God?

And as of yet, none have been able to show or explain any terms or descriptions I've asked for, with Scripture. Please continue.

Jason,

What I am trying to point out is that you violate your own standards. You asked me to show things like the term "Trinity" from Scripture and to "be very specific and word for word with chapter and verse." However, you just stated that you believe "Jesus is God." Scripture never states "word for word with chapter and verse" the words "Jesus is God."

So, if you are allow to hold such a few that is not stated as such in a word for word fashion then your challenge is moot.

I believe the word of God is specific on many things. I also believe Jesus is God as is the Father and Holy Spirit existing in three separate, distinct Persons none of whom is a manifestation of the other.

I'm unaware of anyone who thinks that "Trinity" is the name of God though I'm sure they exist. It is not unheard of to reference the Holy Trinity in prayer as a descriptive of the Godhead.

Again, if you check you're own standards concerning referencing God as the Trinity you fail, imo. I.e. you keep referencing "God" but who is God? Is "God" Yahweh's name?

Mark,
Thank you for your response and to answer your second question, I do believe Jesus is God.

And the answer to your first question, I said in my first post "Please be very specific and word for word with chapter and verse, for Revelation 22:18-19 must be considered." I understand this Scripture to demand specific terms.

I mean no disrespect when I ask you, do you not believe that the Word of God is specific? Or is it just general and up for private interpretation?

And may I echo your second question, to help understand your perspective, do you believe Jesus is God? Or do you believe He is in the Trinity?

Can I ask a question to all that read, for I've heard people refer to Trinity as the Name of God and I also have heard people pray in the name of the Trinity. My question is this, how is this right and not in error with Scripture?

I really am curious. Thank you to any who respond, and I do not wish for this to great discussion to get rude or vicious.

Jason,

That's not what I asked you. You asked where Scripture states specific terms so I'm asking you were the Bible demands such specific terms.

To help understand your perspective, do you believe the Jesus is God?

Thank you for your responses and thank you for your prayers Pastor Camp. I do understand what you are saying however, I think that in matters of naming or describing God we should confine our names and descriptions to Scripture. And I still fail to see or to be shown in Scripture any of the names or descriptive terms that I have kindly asked for.
Mark, the noble people of Thessalonica searched the scriptures daily to see whether these things were so in Act 17:11.
And Victoria, I truly hope that we have not left the Word of God in our attempt to explain God.

Jason
I am surprised-it seems you have not read the works of that great C&MA Pastor-AW Tozer. I would commend to you "The Knowledge of the Holy". Chapter 4 of that book covers the Trinity. I am surprised that someone accredited by the C&MA would be confused on the doctrine of the Trinity.

Jason,

Please verify in Scripture the reasons for attempting to verify in Scripture those items you asked for?

Should have been - "you don't find in Scripture" My typo.

Jason:

Some of th great doctrines of biblical Christianity are represented by terms you find in Scripture but clearly represent biblical truth. For example th word Trinity is nowhere found in Scripture but it succinctly represents the Godhead in Scripture. Just as th phrase Biblical Christianity is not found in th Bible but clearly represents to th entirety of th Christian faith.

As to the One God Three Persons distinction consider these Scriptures: Col 2:9; Jn 1:1,14,18; Acts 5:3·5; Hebrew 9:14; 2 Cor 13:14; Mt 3:16·17; 2Pt 1:16·21.

I don't know if you're regenerated or not, but I will continue to pray for you.
Pastor Steve
The Cross Church

In this discussion, I'm looking for specific words or terms in Scripture. Like Trinity, or God the Son, or God the Holy Spirit, co-equal, co-eternal, Nicene Creed, Athanasian Creed, Apostles Creed. And @SJ Camp, you made a statement "God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit have equally and eternally existed in three Persons", can you tell me who originally said that or show me specifically where it quotes that in the Scripture? Please be very specific and word for word with chapter and verse, for Revelation 22:18-19 must be considered. Thank you

My hats off to Jonathan! Very good observations. We know that only Jesus himself could look into the hearts of men and discern their full intent and the extent and measurement of their total sin. We as Christian men cannot. We come from the same muddy quagmire and the same sinful nature as TD Jakes, Billy Graham, The Apostle Paul, and every other human being to which Christ saved. None of us are higher than the other. It is not up to us to judge this man, and if you dislike his words, do not hear them. For there is a God in heaven that has the power above our means and above this blog to shut up the mouths of those who attempt to distort his word. You have the right to feel how you feel, however do not have the right to judge. We are not put in that position, and if we were, we would be incapable of judging rightly, truly and with any degree of fairness. This world is calling out for our true King and our true judge which is Jesus Christ our Lord. (Jonathan this is not directed toward you at all peace be to you my brother) let us all join together in love as Christ has instructed us, putting aside our foolish wisdom and be obedient in the gentleness of the spirit that Christ gave us for he himself demonstrated to us how to deal with one another. He, knowing all things, being at the beginning of all things, sitting at the right hand of God, knowing the beginning and the end, subordinated himself to the flesh, with kindness, gentleness and laughter. This is our Lord and this is who we are to emulate. God bless you Jonathan for bringing light where darkness was trying to prevail. God bless all contributors to this blog and your insights and let's take Jonathan's lead and strive for a brighter day. Amen, Amen and Amen.

T.D. Jakes believes that God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, and God the Father are one. If we can prove from Scripture that Jakes is going to Hell because of this belief, then it's worthy of our energy (in prayer and in proclamation); but if, upon investigation, this belief will not send Jakes to Hell, then let us rejoice together and spread together the message of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ to the lost! Grace and peace, Jonathan (accredited via the C&MA)

I am sure that you all are praying for Bishop Jakes. I know since you have found error in his theology and his way of preaching the Word, I am sure that collectively as Christians, that you will continue to pray that God touch him and anoint him, to be with him in times of trouble. I am sure with all of your great wisdom and compassion that this is being done. May God have mercy on us all. Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse. 1Co 1:20-21 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For seeing that in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom knew not God, it was God's good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save them that believe. 1Co 1:26-27 For behold your calling, brethren, that not many wise after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: but God chose the foolish things of the world, that he might put to shame them that are wise; and God chose the weak things of the world, that he might put to shame the things that are strong... May your contemplation be of Christ and His gentleness, knowing that each of us are unacceptable to God in our own right, and it is Christ who saves, who died and who lives. Let us now humble ourselves and not let the offense fester, but heal with an open heart and mind representative of the Lord we serve.

If the New Testament Christians could be Christians without the postbiblical traditions, then so can Mr. Jakes. Doctrinal diversity is simply a fact of life among the various Christian churches, there is no single, monolithic body of doctrine accepted by all Christians. Though many Christians have insisted that there is such a universal standard, so far no one has been able to define it to the satisfaction of all the others.

The Nicene Creed insists that the Father and the Son are consubstantial (Greek homoousios), but neither the word nor the concept is biblical. Yet the Nicene Creed must certainly be considered Christian in the sense that it was written by Christians to help define their beliefs about Christ. Its doctrine is Christian in the generic sense, even though it is not actually biblical in its content.

Those that confuse being Christian with being correct think there are only two categories of believers: "those who believe what I believe," and "those who are not really Christians." And yet a logical necessity of having a family of Christian denominations is that one Christian may believe things other Christians don't, and still be considered a Christian. Thus, despite one's view of things, there must be a third category of believers-true Christians whose beliefs differ from one's own.

If doctrinal diversity does not exclude from the Christian family those who disagree on so many matters (Assumption of the Virgin and in her role as a mediatrix in heaven, immaculate conception of Mary, the Bible alone being sufficient for salvation, apostolic succession, priesthood of all believers, saved by grace alone or the sacraments of the church necessary for salvation, free will or in predestination, water baptism(immersion, sprinkling, or some other method), substitutionary, representative, or exemplary atonement, "original sin", and on and on) how can it validly be applied to exclude TD Jakes for disagreeing on others? Surely these issues are doctrinally significant, if doctrinal variance is going to be tolerated in some degree between the older denominations, then in all fairness it cannot be used to selectively exclude Mr. Jakes or anyone else who calls himself a Christian.

No one in redemptive history could deny the doctrine of the Trinity and be considered a Christian. The Lord taught about and affirmed the One-Triune God as well as the Apostles.

Perry:

I have spoken to Jakes and his staff. They deny what you affirm. They do not believe in the Trinity. They are oneness in their doctrine. Sabellianiasts.

This isn't about judging the heart as you sentimentally assert. It is about evaluating the doctrine and refuting those who contradict. (Titus 1:9)

Be a Berean sir and mind the faith.

The Nicene doctrine is one way in which the biblical data can be interpreted. If Mr. Jakes can be criticized for not perceiving the biblical God in the same terms as other Christians, then many early Christian writers, saints, and theologians must be criticized on the same grounds. It is just not historically correct that all true Christians have, from the beginning, perceived God in exactly the same trinitarian terms.

If Jesus didn't teach the Nicene doctrine of the Trinity; if the New Testament writers didn't have any conception of it; if the Apostolic Fathers didn't know about it or even appreciate the problems associated with it; and if the formula itself wasn't even developed until the fourth century and, even then, those who signed it didn't understand it in completely orthodox terms; then one cannot maintain that the Nicene doctrine, as interpreted by modern trinitarians, is essential to true Christianity, unless of course one wants to say that there weren't any true Christians before the fourth century- including Jesus, his disciples, and the New Testament Church.

If the argument used to exclude people like Mr. Jakes holds, and all true Christians must share the same concept of the Trinity, then either the Eastern or the Western church, and more likely the latter, is not truly Christian. On the other hand, if dissimilar conceptions of the Trinity are allowed to Christians on both sides of the filioque dispute, then the original argument is discredited--differing conceptions of the nature of the Trinity do not necessarily render individuals non-Christian.

Ultimately, being Christian is less a matter of perceiving God in the same Nicene or Chalcedonian terms as other Christians do, and more a matter of perceiving God in the same biblical terms as the first Christians did. Did the atonement of Christ save first-century Corinthians and Galatians, even though they did not conceive of God in Nicene terms? Of course it did. And if that is true, then the atonement of Christ can and will save faithful Christians like Mr. Jakes, Mormons, Catholics, etc... who accept the New Testament witness yet do not conceive of God in Nicene terms.

Jakes views are not monotheistic, He speaks Jesus the Son of God, The Holy Spirit and God the Father, equal in nature, distinct in person, subordinate in duties. Before you condemn your brother, how is it that your are saying that Satan anointed the Bishop. Do you not know that Jesus said that a House divided against itself cannot stand. If your personal problem is that you do not like T.D Jakes, then let that be known, but do not assume that you have access into the heavenly realm, speaking on things which it is impossible for you to know. (The heart of a man) Knowing that God will not ask you, me or anyone about Bishop Jakes when it comes for his time to account for his life. Additionally, he has a forum in which you can engage these questions, why don't you ask him the reasons for his faith in Christ, you may very well be surprised. Rom 14:10-12 But thou, why dost thou judge thy brother? or thou again, why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment-seat of God.
For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, to me every knee shall bow, And every tongue shall confess to God. So then each one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Michael:

Saul was God's anointed as King, a ruler. He was not anointed as priest in the temple or as prophet that spoke the oracles of God or one who was a believer, circumcised of heart. T.D Jakes claims to be a believer in Christ, a prophet who speaks for God and a pastor in the church. Yet, he denies the One Triune God of the Bible and therefore worships a different god of his own making which is idolatry. He is not a Christian. He is anointed though... by Satan himself as an angel of light. I do pray for him that he would repent of his sins and false god, and come to Jesus confessing Him as Lord and Savior of his life. Until then, your sentimental words are not loving towards him. For genuine love only "rejoices with the truth."

be careful brother, dont speak against or touch Gods annointed, david wouldnt even lift a hand against king saul, right or wrong he is still God annointed

Hi Mark:

Thanks for posting this interview.

TD Jakes is a nontrinitarian - which is heresy. This interview changes nothing. He is a wolf; not a brother in Christ. This is not a judgement, but a fact of theological and historical record.

Truth is plain. He could have easily affirmed, "I was in error on this crucial point of truth, and now I have repented..." But he chose not too. He danced. He played the civility card rather than the doctrine card. He can say that its not his role to criticize others in what they believe, etc. But one of the roles of any pastor is to "instruct in sound doctrine and refute those who contradict" (Titus 1:9). The nature, character and attributes of the Trinity are not secondary doctrines - but estenial truth. They are primary.

There has never been a time in all of church history that you could deny the doctrine of the Trinnity (God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit have equally and eternally existed in three Persons) and be considered orthodox in your faith. Unless he repents of his skewed and unbiblical beliefs, he will die in his sins, and have no hope of eternal life.

Though he may say Jesus... he worships a different god than the God of the Bible which is idolatry. We need to continue to pray for him that his eyes will opened to this blasphemous teaching and be regenerated by the ministry of the Holy Spirit.

Lastly, what made this interview most saddening, was the tone and weak questions of the interviewer. Oh for a real strong believer in the Lord to sit behind the mic when questioning men like Jakes. Whoever this man was, he was excesssively weak. Unfortunate - a missed opportunity.

Thank you again brother.
Yours for the Master's use,

Pastor Steve Camp
The Cross Church
2 Cor. 4:1-7

No, But God's peace to you. I am outta here.

♫♪♫♪♪♫Ohhhh, the religion outside is frightful, but the love Christ delightful, and since our point has nowhere to go, LET IT GO, LET IT GO, LET IT GO! The Weeds show no signs of stopping, so I brought some Shears for cropping, ‘Cause if God say He loves you so, LET IT GO, LET IT GO, LET IT GO!
When we finally lay our thoughts goodnight, the world outside remains in a storm, but if our faith in God remains just right, Jesus can bring us all safely home!
The knowledge of man is slowly dying, but is not for a lack of trying, the main thing is Jesus loves us so, LET IT GO, LET IT GO, LET IT GO! ♫♪♫♪♪♫
CS Lewis thanks for the laughter, over the years and Let the robes be pulled off.

What concerns me is it is Christ who died. Not this pointless bickering regarding matters as if God is going to consult any of us regarding his personality. Our Doctrine, to be flatly honest, is to be obedient in Christ Jesus. There is only one Christian and he died on the Cross and now sits at the right hand of God. In reflection, if you look at this board, it's root is fault finding. Let it go. it is not important. I have listened to TD, Hinn, Olsteen, Graham, even the small tidbits of some good people here. Jesus did not preach doctrine. Doctrine is established by us. (How believe you?) Pharisees occupied themselves in such matters. Even the best among us is filthy before God. Let it go.

What is the great concern? He speaks the salvation of Jesus Christ. Where is it now that we throw fault around? He raises the banner of Christ just like you do. Where is it now that we discern the hearts and minds of men? If there be any fault, God will treat this, just as I am sure that He will treat your faults as well as mine.

Thanks for this post! The content was helpful and so were the links to external content!

“I believe that in a way that persons is a limited word for the Godhead.” What the heck does that mean?! I think Edward is right... the belief statement of Jakes' congregation is still clearly modalistic. If Jakes changed his position, why is this statement still in existence?

I asked E. Calvin Beisner publicly via Facebook what his thoughts were on the Jakes interview above. Below is his answer posted with permission.
Far, far, far too little evidence there to justify reclassifying Jakes as Trinitarian granted all he's said before and his continuing to consider United Pentecostals his Christian brothers. Nothing quoted there falls outside what any reasonably sly and sophisticated United Pentecostal could say. Let Jakes clearly and explicitly affirm such clear Trinitarian statements as the Nicene Creed, the Symbol of Chalcedon, the Athanasian Creed, or even just Warfield's summary--There is but one God; the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit each is God; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit each is a distinct Person--and then let him also repudiate the anti-Trinitarian statements of United Pentecostalism and other modalist sects, and it'll be time to declare him converted to the true God. My impression is that Jakes is simply out to gain the trust of larger groups than the Oneness and Pentecostal crowd in which he's been at home.

First, Jake's is well known for hiding his Oneness beliefs (even using Trinitarian terms) for the sake of his Trinitarian attendees/givers; Jake's consistently uses vague, unclear language when speaking of the nature of God (which is not often).

Second, and most important, if Jake's all of sudden changed his core beliefs from a Oneness view of God to an orthodox Trinitarian view, then, why is his current “Belief Statement” posted on the Potter’s House website still clearly Oneness?
http://www.thepottershouse.org/Local/About-Us/Belief-Statement.aspx

And if Jake's made this monumental change of the doctrine of God, one would think that Jake's would want to shout it to the world, as any former LDS, Jehovah’s Witness, or Muslim would. Going from heresy embracing a false god to genuine faith in the true God is a very important matter. A pastor has an obligation to his flock to guard them theologically and speak truth.

So, in light of his silence and current Belief Statement, I do not believe it. He, as with all false teachers, provides as much truth as possible, without clearly denying his real belief.

There are historical, accepted, orthodox creeds and statements one can make if they are Trinitarian, Jakes seems intent on avoiding them.

"...we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal..." Would be a good start.

Mark,
Jakes is now a postmodern modalist. He seems to intentionally be hiding his views in hopes of satisfying both sides.

Mark,

I think that there is ample evidence to conclude that Jakes is not as sound as he should be regarding the Trinity. For the sake of argument though, even if Jakes has changed his views on the Trinity to conform more to Scripture, why was anyone from the Potter's House even invited to participate in a Southern Baptist Pastor's Conference? Are there no God-called and gifted men in our own Convention that could have led instrumental music in Phoenix? This, to me, shows a huge disconnect between some in the established leadership of the Convention and a growing number of grassroots Southern Baptists. Thanks for the additional info. on Jakes. God bless,

Howell

Quoting the last phrase by Jakes “I believe that in a way that persons is a limited word for the Godhead.” How utterly confusing! What exactly -I wonder -does that even mean? One thing it does mean-he does not understand the doctrine of the Trinity. It is pretty clear from his confusing statements the he wants to be accepted by those who believe in the Triune God and those who are Modalists.
If you take a clear glass of water and put in a tablespoon of dirt-you do not have dirt and water-you have mud. This is mud.