A Look at Passion City Church

Hi BadDude, I hope I understand your assertion. I asked those questions that came to mind because I thought they were fair. I don't know if there are good answers or not or any answers.

I just thought of what the church looks like biblically and asked some questions.

You are asking these questions of Louie's church plant as if the fact they were not asked or answered in the Q/A means there would not be good answers for them. This is certainly unfair.

Hi Randy,

I did give the Sunday evening devotion and have another coming up. If you'd like to listen to it it's on my site: http://hereiblog.com/april-devotion-mp3/ (Feed back welcome)

I get your prayer list/updates and I appreciate you thinking of me. I don't mind.

Oops! I said I had an analogy in my previous statement. However, my "cut and paste" prowess has not served me well. Items 1 & 2 are further descriptions of the analogy, but not the analogy itself. I lost the few sentences regarding the analogy because I cut and pasted when the session had timed out and I lost it all. But the reader doesn't have to wander too far intellectually to see how simple the analogy is: Organizational development is much like human development in many respects.

G'nite,
Randy

I like Louie's humility.
.-= Barry Wallace´s last blog ..SBC politics and the local church =-.

I agree with you Randy in all of what you have said.

I am actually a bit taken aback by this blog post. Mark, what you have listed as 'questionable' seems to me real nit-picking and I question whether it has any place coming from people within the body of Christ. Some of the comments are plain unacceptable.

In Louie & Shelley Giglio we have a man & his wife, and a team of friends who have worked faithfully for the Kingdom, who worship God in their words & actions and through their general Christian conduct - their lives reflect their trust in God - and who have been faithful to their local churches, who are now stepping out to fulfill what they see is the primary focus for the Body of Christ - that being reaching the lost through the establishment of local church.

I read the article at ChristianityToday and it is the heartbeat of what we are doing at Lighthouse in the Central Coast of Australia. We have a vision for the Coast of a church for all ages that reaches out to hurting world around us with God's love and hope eternal using all the creativity and skill and intelligence at our disposal, to disciple people into a rich and full life in Christ, one-on-one. Our focus is to serve the local community into the Kingdom. All that Louie said resonated with me to the core.

Louie said.. "I want to be able to lay down at the feet of Jesus and say I gave it a shot..."
Why would you possibly question this statement? Are you saying that a man must know the formula, format and outcome before he steps out for God - must he know the answers before he trusts God - or is it not about saying "Lord I am here, Lord I am willing". nothing else. Rather if I hear a Christian, particularly a big name Christian saying that he was called by God to achieve in such a way as within , *just as it's been done before like everyone else* then it would be ME asking the questions along the lines of: Is this really a God thing or a man-made plan? Where is the faith? And how come you have heard from God so clearly about the whole deal when scripture tends to show that God provides the vision, the call, but generally not much more than the next step: "go do this", then "go do this". Louie's stepped out in faith in a new way right from the beginning, bringing Christ to thousands of young people in the process. Why would this step be any different?

Louie said... "It's about a man who wants to be obedient to God. It's about me, at 50, hearing the voice of God and saying yes, I will follow that."

How can one question that heartbeat? I mean really? All God asks for is our obedience, our willingness to listen to Him and do what He says. Louie has been a great example of that. Why question his words or approach now when they reflect the same heart? Is it just because he is a famous name now? I'd say that these would have been similar in tone to what he was saying when he started doing Bible studies in colleges right back in the beginning.

Look, as a committed and active member of a small church that is seeking to do things along a similar line to they way he reached the young people in his area, I love this man's heart for the things that matter to God: people. We serve a God who started the age of grace by 'getting men drunk in the Spirit' and then converting thousands in one go. All through Acts we see different methods of bringing people to the Truth, and different people with different approaches, and different types and 'flavours' of churches. How can you sit and question what God is going to do through this man and his core team before he even really knows himself?

A caveat: no matter whether the method or approach, or the words used to describe it, 'sit with you' or not, the proof of the solidity of a man or movement comes in what the actions reflect in terms of soundness in Truth. 'Good' (as in correct foundation in the Word, correct doctrine) ideas have good consequences and 'Bad' ideas have bad consequences. But unless it is blatantly against core doctrinal teaching, how can you judge much before it's happened?

Louie said... "To the degree that we can let it be his and not ours—then it will be amazing. "

Leave well alone, and judge the doctrinal stance when it's setup, and the fruit thereof. In the meantime, if you're going to focus on possible error in the Body of Christ, let's look at the mega-churches that fail to reference the Bible or refer to Jesus Christ much in their message or discipleship, or those propagating the worldliness of 'prosperity doctrine' largely to the exclusion of all else - you won't have to look far.

Heidi Baker headed for Mozambique with a little bit of money, no back-up plan and heart full of love, to reach people with Jesus and establish the 'local church'. That was pretty 'crazy' - we should all get a little 'crazy' like that and as far as I can see Louie's heart is in a similar place.

-----
On a more personal note, and a bit of an aside, but relating to good & bad ideas...

Randy said...
"My kids are born again. For that I’m grateful. But once again, it was not the church that got them there. The church was an obstacle I (we) had to overcome and I was steadfastly committed to doing so for the sake of my kids. A very good church became a very bad church and it tore our family apart…just before it fell apart. The most effective presentation of the gospel (the good news of the love of God) to my kids was my unconditional love for them – expressed both verbally and by my actions – especially in the very thick of their many wrong-doings."

This was pretty much my experience, but the church in question was founded on an incorrect doctrinal basis and footing, which I didn't realise until too late. My children are younger, but are either in Christ or are coming to Christ purely on a similar basis - not because of the church they attended, but the same as everyone, through the leading of the Holy Spirit and through the example of my life - living what I hold to be true.

So what am I saying?
Yes, do judge, and judge wisely in regards to how and why a church is setup or a movement is started, but be slow to criticize and careful with your words for as you mete out so in turn it will be meted out to you. But in this case we have a man, no... a team, with a history of serving God faithfully - and as far as I can see nothing's changed. Unless there are some glaring errors or omissions, why question him or his team now? God may have used all that went before in his and his teams' lives *just* to lay the foundation for what is to come - what does their worldly popularity matter to God? And as to those that would follow popularity... lemmings are what they are. However, the true sheep know the Good Shepherd's voice and do what He tells them.

Garth,

My foundational objection to what Giglio and co. are doing is their seemingly light view of the doctrine of church and her offices. To start a church that meets less than even once a month and may also depending on who is touring, etc. seems to mock what God has put in place as the local church. Not to mention having to RSVP to attend.

Is it non-Christians who will RSVP? I highly doubt it. How does one reach the lost with this methodology? Again, what about the people who will RSVP? Are they members of other local churches? If an unbeliever did come to Christ at Passion City and the next meeting is not for two months who would this person be ministered to?

I understand one's feelings about following one's heart and such. One's heart though is still subject to the will of God as revealed in Scripture. Of course, there will be differing approaches in methodology and such. I understand that. However, a church has a structure with pastor(s) who are accountable to the souls of those he shepherds. How is this biblically full-filled in a part-time church?

I may have been a bit harsh in some areas. Maybe I can address your concerns and question myself in the process. I will be traveling this weekend so I'm not sure what kind of time I will have.

Thanks for stopping by and gracefully challenging me.

Peace.

No need to spend the time. Just read turnings by Guy Chevreau (see Iris Ministries website or go to Amazon). You make a lot of assumptions about how 'church' should be carried out.

Simply put, we should not put God in a box. In my mind, this is what theology tends to lead to. He is not formulaic in the way he deals with us. Yes, certain glimpses of what church meant to the early Christians are provided by scripture, and yes, there are many that argue along the lines of a strong set structure and approach for modern churches. As I am intimately involved in building one I am aware of these structures, am highly analytical, and as I am a recipient of how wrong ideas, wrong foundations and wrong structure can disastrously affect members and their families I am obviously very interested in getting it right for the people that we are called to serve. I am intensely committed to ensuring discipleship is the core of all we do. BUT hear me clearly - our God is a God who reaches out to His people whether we are ready for it or not - for He can provide ALL that is required for each and every person. He is NOT limited by us. He is complete in Himself.

Churches are setup by church management. Just as a good guide to investing in shares is to remember that you are 'buying the management' and their past performance is a good indicator to the future of the company, even moreso when it comes to churches. Louie's past is solid. His focus is true. His methodologies may not make sense to you - they don't have to.

We have serious growth in our church; we have a young senior pastor that has been successful in the past, is a serious student of revival and good church management, and loves structure - but because it's like a new church plant, yet one with a lot of prior baggage to work through, we have only started setting up serious discipleship structures. Does that mean that we should shut our doors until our structures are right?... Yet, because discipleship is really a one-on-one thing, the newly saved, and those in serious spiritual/emotional need (and that was much of the congregation to begin with) have been taken care of through the working of the HS through intimate fellowship of believers. Now we can create structures to accommodate/encourage that, but if it's not the heart of the leader(s), then it won't become the heart of the congregation, and structures/methodologies don't create the culture - they only facilitate it. Having started out my Christian walk in the early days of a current Australian megachurch C3, and seeing the way in which it has grown and operated, and the 'phases' it went through, I have some insight into this. Interestingly C3 (or CCC as it was) is notably run along structured business lines.

Louie Giglio, on his blog www.286blog.com, talks about a young girl named Ashley who came to the Lord in '07 and sadly died recently. Herein lies an example of discipleship - Christa introduced her, Ashley was impacted by Reuben Morgan's beautiful and anointed song 'Mighty To Save' (a worship leader and song that is interestingly from a church that some would say has a 'seeker focus' and 'prosperity doctrine foundation') and consequently overcome by the HS. Christa walked beside her since then until a tragic car accident took her.

That's how Passion Church will grow and be nurtured. Don't underestimate the power of a *true conversion* and the moving of the HS in and through the lives of believers. The Body of Christ is people - it is the people that make the difference not the church.

Read the book. Visit a cutting edge mission. A lot of our theology goes out the window. Western Christendom is in serious peril, yet we are blind to it. Better methodologies and structures can be very helpful, but passion for people, loving what God loves, and hating what God hates is where it's at.

Let's not waste a moment more on irrelevancies.

Garth,

Thanks for stopping back by. First, some irony. I had a chat with a fellow church member tonight after our Wed. Bible study and fellowship meal. He told me he reads my blog. I had no idea. He then told me, without asking, that he read my posts on Passion Church with interest. He agreed with my inquisitive observations. I share that since it came up unsolicited by me and to show that I am not alone in my ponderings here.

I just want to point out a few things for the readers here concering some of your statements. Nothing bad, just some observations.

You make a lot of assumptions about how ‘church’ should be carried out.

Simply put, we should not put God in a box. In my mind, this is what theology tends to lead to.

Everything concerning God tends to be theological. It is the essence of theology which we can't escape. The question becomes theology on what basis?

He is not formulaic in the way he deals with us.

This is a theological statement. From where did you formulate it? In what is this position grounded?

our God is a God who reaches out to His people whether we are ready for it or not – for He can provide ALL that is required for each and every person.

Another theological statement. Concerning the church where do you get this?

Churches are setup by church management. Just as a good guide to investing in shares is to remember that you are ‘buying the management’ and their past performance is a good indicator to the future of the company, even moreso when it comes to churches. Louie’s past is solid. His focus is true. His methodologies may not make sense to you – they don’t have to.

These are several theological statments concerning church. On what basis did you develop them?

I will stop here in quoting you. See, you too are putting God in a box. It's just a different looking box. I do my best to try and understand God via the Scriptures He's given us. That is the basis under which I strive to work. What is your basis?

I will look into your book recommendation.

Grace always.

Truth doesn't need to keep company. Finding like minds simply means that you've found someone who agrees with you, but it doesn't confirm whether something is right or not.

No box. In fact that's the point. The world is full of people interpreting the Bible for their own ends or theories. God works in His ways, not ours. If we listen to Him, and do what He says to us then we walk in the light and our lives are fruitful - individually and corporately. And yes, it must be confirmed through his Word.

These discussions can become valueless after a certain point. Unless it's core doctrine it's splitting hairs to what end?

Personally I think that we should all get back to reading and living Acts. The Ravehill Challenge makes a lot of sense to me given that there's a lot of talk but most of it's noise, and little forward movement in the West, as opposed to the growth and fire of Christendom that we see in many other parts of the world.

Let's pray for Louie and his team for God's will to be done - reaching Atlanta for Christ is God's will. If there is something of core doctrinal or moral error then revisit it.

Someone said that as ministers we are either comforting the agitated or agitating the comfortable. I will be praying for you and your ministry. We need more people willing to stand up and call to account the idolatory of a Christian generation that seems consumed by materialism, a carnal gospel and a 'what's in it for me' mentality that finds the phrase 'taking up our Cross for Jesus' and repentance alien to our thinking.

FYI You may wish to check out http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/

Hi Mark,

I was a bit surprised to get the email notifications from the blog still. BTW…the new format/content/structure/look is much more visually appealing.

Also, I seem to remember you indicated some time ago that you had just been invited to address your congregation in one of the services and you were a bit nervous (I understand!). Since you seem to be putting so much work into preparation for ministry, I took the liberty (as your brother in Christ) to add you (anonymously) to what has become my daily prayer list. I hope you’re doing well in your training and making some good progress.

Upon reading Garth’s response and re-reading some of the old posts, I just thought of a new analogy that might help us make better sense of the Passion City Church methodology. As you said, You are not alone in your observations of PCC and in your interpretations of their proposed methodologies. I know….I’ve responded to several different blog posts. But my analogy is this:

1. Infancy always precedes maturity. Organizational purpose is given by God to any entity (human, business, ministry, etc.) from the beginning and that purpose is realized through stages of development: crying, feeding, dirty diapers, potty training, walking, running, learning, first dates, marriage, reproduction. This process may involve a higher percentage of mistakes to “getting it right” and will therefore require an acknowledgement of the supremacy of “grace”. And when we reach the mature stage of reproduction, we don’t reproduce perfect babies….we reproduce babies born in sin…as declared by God. Humans involved in organizational reproduction also reproduce organizations born in sin (not perfect and subject to the developmental stages to reach maturity). One aspect of the beauty of grace is that it insures that none of us are disqualified from developing toward reproductive maturity just because we are flawed. It is the same with organizations. However, the ideal is for healthy organizations to reproduce healthy organizations (church plants, ministries, businesses, etc.…and for these organizations to stay healthy. Rooted in Christ, He naturally (and supernaturally) becomes the sustenance for all operations, growth and reproduction. So….go for it in your studies! Preach like fire was upon your tongue…and love like the consuming fire that our God is……through all the necessary mistakes!


2. Thin skin covers the internal mechanisms which drive the workings of organizational functions. It’s only the skin that others get to really see….and it’s the view of the skin which primarily drives the visual interpretation of the organized entity. Understanding organizational “work” involves looking beneath the skin. Only a few people understand what’s under the skin of Passion City Church. For right now, all we can do is experience visually the external beauty of the organization (or lack of beauty depending on one’s perception) because skin prohibits view beyond the skin. I think we’ll see and understand more of this entity over time….and it is to the great joy of many of our brothers and sisters that for Passion City Church the seed is in the ground! I’ll just keep praying for them…just like I’ll keep praying for you and others!


I wish you and your family all the best!

Randy

my apologies for the typo: http://www.268blog.com

Abclay,

You said “I submit that this breakdown doesn’t start in the homes necessarily, but in neglecting the Bible and what it says about parenting”. And you asked: “So, do you agree that these unbiblical “churches” begin because “youth grow up, not having enough fun at their home church, and decide to have a “church” service that fits their own needs, disregarding the biblical function and necessity of a local covenanted community of believers”?”

Well….I can only partially agree with the assumption regarding where “breakdown” begins, because “breakdown” can happen simultaneously on more than one front…and I can only partially agree with the statement regarding the beginnings of unbiblical churches.

Here’s why…and here’s where my paradigms of church and of life in general may depart rather distinctly from the norm. However, the paradigms are fluid and I’ll change my mind….just convince me!! -:)

If I remember correctly and assuming I’ve been told the truth, the Christian church is comprised of approximately 30 or 40 THOUSAND different denominational families, groups and subgroups across various CULTURES (with varying political and social infrastructures) and across TIME. I believe this is how many are extant (existing today!). Many are relatively new and many have survived over time and have deep historical roots. Of the billions of participants in these groups, some may be born again, some may not….and therefore, some will go to heaven and some will not (per Jesus). Among these tens of thousands of groups and billions of participants over 2000 years of time, doctrinal variances have been established which define the groups for purpose of mission and for purpose of solidarity among members to get the mission accomplished. And this tends to happen through the inter-relationships of a hierarchy of groups…..reaching down to the “local covenanted” group of participants who are actually in the communities they impact.

So…when we ask questions regarding organizational (church) formation and organizational (church) purpose, I do not think there are simple answers. God (Jesus) is the same yesterday, today and forever….yet He is so infinitely complex and capable (omnipotent to be more precise) that He is able to accomplish the increase of His Kingdom across time and culture….and to begin with, He did so without a Bible (as we know it today…because it took nearly 300 years for us to get one…and remember – God is in control and could have done it differently…but didn’t)….and even today, people become Christians in cultures that have no Bible translations, and therefore not much substantial doctrine…..(and this is a noteworthy observation - many (perhaps most) of us in the modern church with many translations available to us DO NOT EVEN READ IT!!)

So….because my little mind cannot even begin to fully understand the magnitude of such workings, I need a set of lenses to help bring clarity to the vision for the church which exists far outside the parameters of even my most peripheral vision. His ways are simply too high and too wide to grasp…period.

But, here’s what has helped me make just “some” sense of it all: Enter stage left: General Systems Theory (GST) for Living Systems (plus my own additions to it stolen from the Bible, of course, which I won’t expound here). GST for Living Systems proposes definitions for various hierarchal relationships that exist in and among living systems and offers a great context from which to view the church and families and their relationships to one another and to all else that is.

Here’s what it says: There exists basically 8 tiers of living systems found in nature, the lower comprising the higher: (note: parenthesis below added by me)

Cell
Organ
Organism (individuals)
Group (families)
Organization (churches)
Community
Society (nations)
Supra-national system (international)

Here’s what the Bible says: (Ephesians 4: 9-16)

(Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, THAT HE MIGHT FILL ALL THINGS ) And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, FOR THE EQUIPPING OF THE SAINTS FOR THE WORK OF THE MINISTRY, FOR THE EDIFYING OF THE BODY OF CHRIST, till we all come to the UNITY OF THE FAITH and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may GROW UP IN ALL THINGS INTO HIM who is the head—Christ— from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which EVERY PART DOES ITS SHARE, causes GROWTH OF THE BODY for the EDIFYING OF ITSELF IN LOVE.

My take on this is that Christ gave gifts (apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors/teachers) for the equipping of the SAINTS (individuals) for the work of the MINISTRY (churches – groups of individual saints and families of saints) for the edifying of the BODY OF CHRIST (all true churches (groups of saints) composed of all true individual saints and families of saints across all of time together unified in Christ)…..until Christ returns.

Now, to answer your question specifically I’d say that the breakdown you speak of MAY not necessarily begin at the organizational levels of home or church, but rather at the level of organism (individual). MAYBE the breakdown begins when individual SAINTS resist operating effectively within the gifts they are given and thereby thwarting the purposes for which these gifts are given to mankind by God (see above Eph. 4). When this happens, everything built upon the individual (families and churches) is negatively affected (a little leaven leavens the whole lump of bread). So, I would tend to believe that when God LOVES individuals and individuals (including saints) refuse to LOVE God in return, then the families and churches these individuals comprise become skewed in purpose and function and the “sin” of the individual is passed generationally to families and churches.

Now….I’m not saying I’m right….I’m saying this is what I observe.

Now…going back to the original Louie issue: The man may not yet have defined himself doctrinally as a church and he may not have even said if this new church (Passion City Church) will be a member of an umbrella church organization that has a defined doctrinal position, and he may say things not understood by others….BUT regardless of any of these items of secondary importance Louie’s life is a life that simply oozes the love of God….a love that he receives and a love that he returns and a love that he shares. And since love appears to be the primary fuel of GROWTH and EDIFICATION of the BODY OF CHRIST, I would say the man has built a very firm foundation to begin work upon as he moves to operate in the gift of pastor/teacher. It’s God’s gift and God’s power. Let’s let God have His own way in the life of a man who will allow himself to be loved by God and will love God in return and let’s see what contribution this relationship will make to the GROWTH OF THE BODY through the edifying power of love. Let’s you and I and everyone else seek to achieve the same results in our families and businesses (or jobs) and thereby make our churches more potent when we do come together to worship!

Perhaps this might show that we really do believe that God “hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all. (Ephesians 1: 22-23).

Note: This is by no means a complete exposition of my beliefs, as that would require much more space and another platform. This, in a nutshell is justification for my support of Louie and every other minister who is committed to growing the body of Christ.

Later,
Randy

Goodness, that link was troubling Mark.

Very troubling indeed. Only one percent of those studied are narrow minded, hate-filled bigots as defined by our society.

Hi guys,

I've had a long night and day of taking our cat to the emergency room in the middle of the night. Then, driving her around to day for treatment and to finally drop her off. I'm finally home now.

I agree with Randy on parents being primarily responsible for training their children in the Lord. Now, parents don't seem to have done such a good job, nor have some churches not done a good job at equipping the parents. Just look at this report: <li>Less Than 1 Percent of Young Adults Hold Biblical Worldview</li>

Randy, I should have a reply to your first response soon. I actually can see how you might have come across in a not so kind manner. But that was probably from "hearing" how you thought I came across. Anyways...

I'm very tired...
Mark

In my writing the last post, I am assuming that Mark will still find time to give a brief post on the biblical mandate for a New Testament Church in response to the question that was asked of him by Randy to define "local church".

Randy,

I think you are right but I submit that this breakdown doesn't start in the homes necessarily, but in neglecting the Bible and what it says about parenting. This could be due to a lack of Biblical leadership in the Pulpit? Sort of a chain effect, the first link being a departure from the view that Scripture is sufficient for all things, including, and especially parenting.

So, do you agree that these unbiblical "churches" begin because "youth grow up, not having enough fun at their home church, and decide to have a “church” service that fits their own needs, disregarding the biblical function and necessity of a local covenanted community of believers"?

I am not condemning these gatherings as totally un-useful, just that they can't be considered "churches" because they don't fill the mandate of a Biblical church.

Guys, it looks like the Shack thread is in danger of being outdone! (Only about 500 more comments needed here!)

Just in a jovial mood, sorry. Good discussion here, Mark. Always appreciate your work.

Randy,

Thanks. Response forthcoming when time allows.

Abclay:

As father of a son and daughter (ages 21 and 19 respectively) who have both made a profession of faith in Christ, I will give my perspective on your last question. It was not the church that led them to Christ or even made Christ that attractive to them at their young ages. I did! Therefore, I won’t say that the church has necessarily “conditioned the youth to believe that the church service is all about them and if they don’t have fun then it isn’t fulfilling”.

But, that leads me to a subtle point: If the church is not conditioning the children to believe such things that emphasize self fulfillment, self centeredness and fun for the self, and if the children do indeed believe such things…then could it be that the PARENTS are the ones doing the conditioning? Could it be that both by words and by example the parents conduct the homefront in such a manner that the kids (and the parents) just “have to be involved” in so many things in order to achieve fulfilling lives, and that the church has been reactive to this social phenomenon by offering “programs” that attract (both the parents and the children).

Hence, we have an established dynamic between the church and the home worthy of our analysis and consideration. The two encounter one another and it’s like “hey, you got chocolate in my peanut butter….no, you got peanut butter on my chocolate…..but hey this tastes great!.....unless of course the peanut butter has salmonella and the chocolate is too bitter. So, what has the potential to be great also has the potential to be both unpleasant and deadly.

As best I understand, the church’s emphasis on “programs…programs…programs” FOLLOWED the home’s emphasis on such things. Also, (I assume) that the proliferation of “church-hopping” FOLLOWED the proliferation of “home-hopping” by parents (i.e divorces and remarriages galore) To me this demonstrates the power of the home to affect the church and the vulnerability of the church to be affected by the home. Now that’s a good element to a thesis statement for someone who wants to do some meaningful research!

My kids are born again. For that I’m grateful. But once again, it was not the church that got them there. The church was an obstacle I (we) had to overcome and I was steadfastly committed to doing so for the sake of my kids. A very good church became a very bad church and it tore our family apart…just before it fell apart. The most effective presentation of the gospel (the good news of the love of God) to my kids was my unconditional love for them – expressed both verbally and by my actions – especially in the very thick of their many wrong-doings. I think the church picks up the slack in this area when the parents abdicate their responsible privilege of communicating the gospel to their children, but it is not the church’s first responsibility…it is the parents’. And if the parents need help, or don’t know how to communicate the gospel, then the church is there to help equip them…to be sure that both the parents and the children are established and grounded in God.

Therefore, I would conjecture that many of the arguments and assumptions concerning the role and place of the church are just as (if not more so) applicable to the structure of the home.

While we’ve been conditioned to seek fun as a source of fulfillment (both by our homes and by our churches)…it is really LOVE that we seek and respond best to. We respond best to our parents when they love us, hold us, talk to us, relate to us, understand us, encourage us. Churches are most effective in communities consisting of homes in which these practices are implemented….and the gospel becomes not something we have to defend or present from an overly intellectual perspective but rather the gospel becomes something (rather SOMEONE) we pant and thirst for, fervently desire above all else and unflinchingly embrace with all that we are. This is the Jesus I offered my kids….and they took it!

Randy

Mark,

True about Jesus forgiving my cynicism but I shouldn't be cynical so that grace can abound.

Rather than being cynical, I will frame my thoughts in the form of a question.

Sean,

What does it mean to "do church"?

What did you mean by "encountering God"?

How did God "respond"?

These terms that you use sound really spiritual, but they can mean so many things. Some clarification would be most helpful.

Randy,

You ask good questions for Mark, I hope that he has time to answer.

To All

My 12 year old daughter doesn't like to go to our Wednesday night services because she says "it's no fun". This leads me to the following question. Have we conditioned our youth in the previous 1 or 2 generations to believe that the church service is all about them and if they don't "have fun" then it isn't fulfilling? My former church would bend over backwards and turn flips just to get youth in church. Programs, Programs, Programs....

Consequently, do the youth grow up, not having enough fun at their home church, and decide to have a "church" service that fits their own needs, disregarding the biblical function and necessity of a local covenanted community of believers?

Of course, having someone say church is "no fun" is indicative of other possible problems, one of which could be that person not being a Child of God.

Mark,

I wish you well in your efforts in your Pastoral Theology class and your radio devotion. It’s actually a relief to me that you didn’t take my comments as being sharp. I thought they were, but if you didn’t….great! Onward we go.

You do raise a point when you say “the local church is more than that”. From the context of the sentence, I assume you mean that the local church is more than just someone’s “passion”. If so, I do agree with that. But the point raises a question. If the local church is “more than that”, then what is the “more than that” that the local church is? In other words, will you define (as fully as you can) “local church”. I’m curious to know it’s definition, purpose, function, proper organizational infrastructure and it’s optimum relationship to other churches (as well as anything else you might want to throw in!) I’m also now curious as to what a good definition might be for the “un-local church”. I supposed that in establishing the definition for both, we might arrive at an acceptable definition for “church” with no adjectives preceding it.

I also have another question. If the local pastors are accountable to God for the care and feeding of their people, and some of these people remain immature to the extent that they will leave a pastor’s congregation to be a part of a “mega-church production” just to “see their favorite Christian artist”, then does responsibility for the lack of maturity in the life of those Christians fall upon the pastor who does not feed the flock good spiritual food or upon the Christian who does not eat the good food being fed….and to what extent? Is it the pastor’s food or the believer’s appetite that stands in the way of maturity?

These questions bring to light a new perspective that looks beyond the mere occurrence of a new church plant in Atlanta (or anywhere for that matter). I think we must look FIRST at the effectiveness of pastors in maturing their congregations and the capacity of believers to mature in Christ….in other words the relationship between a ministry and its members. THEN look at the effect of another church plant on those ministries. So…perhaps other ministries (i.e Passion City Church) should remain in the peripheral vision of the scrutinous eyes examining them whereas the ministries these eyes participate in should receive the more focused vision of its participants....so that we can GET SOME REAL WORK DONE. I assume after all that’s why you are devoting quantities of time to your Pastoral Theology class and to your radio efforts….and these things are very commendable. You could choose to do something else with your time, but you don’t.

Just one more comment for now: Rather than burden Louie and the PCC team with cynical and harsh remarks, maybe we could let them be our burden in prayer.

Randy

Sean,

Thanks for stopping by. This is a bit off topic for this post, but you've raised my curiosity. You said

I encountered God and asked Him if He was pleased with how we (Passion City Church) did church that night and boy did He respond.

What does this mean exactly?

David, my friend and fellow worshipper. I appreciate your careful approach. I don't necessarily disagree.

Randy,

I didn't take your comments hear as being sharp. Should I? My intent is also not to demean Louie's passion, but the local church is more than that. (I don't mean to say you believe otherwise.)

I don't want to encourage people to not support what Louie and Co. are trying to do. I do, however, want to consider just what the local church is and for whom pastors are accountable to before God.

My point also is not to focus on these men in particular. If it were John Piper, a man I love and learn from, doing the same things I would answer the same way. I mean no ill will in either case.

I will take a look at Randy's long response and comment. I have a Pastoral Theology class to catch up on and a radio devotion to finish and record. Sorry for the delay.

Mark

p.s. Maybe it's the Pastoral Theology class that is having me think through things a little differently than in the past.

Sean...2/15 was an incredible church service. If you're one of the ones who helped make it happen....thanks!

David...your final question and your statement "a form of godliness...but no power" hits the big fat nail on it's big fat head with a big fat hammer! (in my opinion)

Randy

I’d like to circle back around in addressing the scope of issues that have been raised in this and some other internet blogs. Through this blog I became aware of the Christianity Today interview with Louie…I thought the interviewer asked some good questions and I thought Louie gave some good responses. However, most of the comments that appeared at the end were just completely unacceptable. So…I responded there too. I really prefer to keep to myself and not make everyone else’s business my own business (1 Thess.4:11 - And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you). But, as I have seen some of the derogatory and questionable comments made by other Christian brothers posted to public forum regarding another brother and sister (Louie/Shelly) who appear to be diligently and passionately devoting their heartbeats to the work of God’s Kingdom, I chose to respond sharply. Is a sharp response warranted? I don’t know for sure….but the book of Titus seems to indicate there is an appropriate place for sharp rebukes and responses to certain things…and there’s a long list of those things!

But, to clarify my intent I want to say that I’m not angry at JM or anyone else (not even the guys who responded with comments to the CT interview). Everything I said in support of Louie also applies to my unconditional support of each of these people in their work. If someone opposed JM or these others in their work committed to the Kingdom, then my responses apply to that opposition as well. In my opinion, we already have so much opposition to our efforts (principalities, powers, governments, vain philosophies and thoughts that oppose Christ, and our own sinful natures) we don’t need to tear our own selves apart. I think we should be very careful how we approach and how we esteem one another. It’s the arguments I oppose….even as I argue with and attempt to overcome the vanity of my own heart and intellect (and this is not false humility…it’s a bona fide struggle if there ever was one…and the struggle is common to each of us) I support the people who are at work in the ministry….and I’ve never met any of you….not even Louie! So, if anything I’ve said is wrong, then I oppose that too. I reserve the right to be wrong and will change my mind to embrace the right when given the opportunity. Let’s make the most of the limited time we have and be especially considerate of the many who are truly reaping the blessings of this new church! If this church proves to be the real deal, then may the earth’s landscape be littered with many more like it!

Randy

JM, good points, questions....I agree we have to be very careful because the Christian landscape is littered with criticism and division. The question that should be asked ultimately..."Is God being glorified?" Only he can truly answer that but we should, as believers, be held accountable.

Jesus poured into 11(12) average men and then Paul and a few others, and it changed the world...one person at a time. Big events are helpful (feeding the 4 and 5,000, raising Lazarus etc...) and are certainly useful in creating a fishing pool but eventually Jesus goes back to the 12. There are a few verses that talk about corporate worship (singing spiritual songs, hymns of praise etc...) but mostly it was as Jesus put, abiding (obedience) and fruit, living in everyday life as a follower of Christ.

The tendency (in my opinion) in the larger churches is too much focus on emotional corporate worship and the lead pastor and not enough in truly changing lives.This is where it gets difficult....if 12(11) men were there as Jesus changed the world....suffice it to say that 10,000 should completley transform the universe, not just one country or one city.....much less 20 or 30 churches with 10,000. I am not sur ethat is happening the way we think. Evangelism is about spiritual reproduction and all too often, in most churches more than likely we are not reproducing multiple generations. God IS changing the world, despite what institutional churches are doing, and he knows his true followers.

There are too many questions to cover in this forum, but one final question I have is this and it is for all of us: When each person walks through the door into a body of believers, are their lives being pulled from darkness into light? If so, they should have an effect on everyone around them to the degree that lives should be changed, seeds should be planted and discipleship should be occuring. One of the biggest challenges for all churches is discipleship, mentoring and it is even a bigger challenge for larger churches....how can you possibly mentor 10,000 people, who are the leaders who have been trained in the word? It still comes down to one on one relationships.

If not, they are just joining another religious club where there is "a form of godliness....but no power"

you will have that everwhere no matter if it is a well-known group trying to further the kingdom.

the church is what it was all about...

I grew up in church and can say on that night, February 15- I encountered God and asked Him if He was pleased with how we (Passion City Church) did church that night and boy did He respond.

for God
for people
for the city
for the world

church is not about meeting in a building- it is a body of people together. we're meeting ALL ACROSS ATLANTA. We are here for the city.

We will meet regularly when it is suitable.

For His renown!

Randy,

I appreciate your thought out response. I will hopefully respond very soon as I move through some of my pending responsibilities.

Blessings,

Mark

I had to read the CT article after reading this post. I posted your comments/questions (in order to keep up with them all and keep everything in context) with my responses following:

The Questionable
JM: I gave it a shot-I tried to build into the local community of faith that he gave his life for…Our friends said, “Tell us when and where and we will be there.”…We’re meeting once a month out of necessity…We’ll meet in May and then pause for the summer…meet more often in the fall but not weekly yet…we don’t use the common words that are defining churches…need a life-changing transaction with their Creator…come to Passion City Church, you’ll know that we’re here to exalt God…I hope it has a youthful vibe…a place where the presence of God rests and moves out to help this city…you take steps that look a little crazy, [God] has a way of doing things that blow your mind.

Give it a shot? I just don’t get that. It reminds me of those “Try Jesus” bumper stickers.

Randy: I think if we try more empathetically to put ourselves into the heart and mind of the speaker (Louie) it becomes real easy to “get it” and it doesn’t sound like a “Try Jesus” bumper sticker at all. In response to the question “Why are you planting a new church in Atlanta?”, the man begins his reply talking about “his heart” and what he believes may very well be actual communication between that heart and the Creator of that heart. The best this man can do when trying to discern such communication from God is the best any of us can do…..wrestle with it, ponder it and answer yes or no to it – by faith. The lack of more concrete substance to his answer is evidence to me that faith is the invisible gift of God to him that may, in due course provide the concrete evidence of the things he is hoping to achieve as his very “personal” relationship with Christ plays out over time. The only alternative I think of to faith is presumption….and that too will provide evidence of its working over time. The statement “I gave it a shot” is actually directed to “Jesus” and not to anyone on earth. It’s simply how, in this man’s mind he sees himself giving an account of his life to Christ. As far as I can tell, no one else may be in room with him and Jesus when he gives that account….as may be the case with all of us. If that’s the verbage he uses in his mind when communicating with Christ, then it shows a very close comfort level with his Creator….a comfort level born not out of disdain or disrespect, but rather a comfort level with God born out of a heartfelt and warm love for God, which in turn is born out of the experience of the heartfelt and warm love of God for him. So….in matters of personal (not community) accountability, the man says to an interviewer that’s what he thinks he wants to say to Jesus. OK…great….everybody on planet earth should be fine with that.

JM: I assume Giglio’s friends are Christians who are all ready involved in a local church so why encourage them to join him?

Randy: No need to assume anything here. If the interviewer quoted Louie correctly, then Louie did say that “most of the people I know and respect are already involved in local churches.” But, he also said that he and his wife simply shared with their friends what they thought God was communicating to their own hearts….that they both “want to pastor a local community of faith with the DNA of Passion”. Well….kudos to the both of them for not building on any other man’s foundation, but rather upon a foundation (Passion) established by the work of their own hands…a foundation duly established by hard work, much sacrifice, many trials and a streamlined dedication of their very own heartbeats to make it what it is today – a reflection of God’s love for them and their love for Him. Silent appreciation for such a brother and sister should be every critic’s just critique of their lives. And if their friends want to join them in the effort, then isn’t it wonderful that they get to continue to work (even harder now) with friends as co-laborers in the journey! What a blessing. I wish we all had more friends like that.


JM: It seems the approach for starting this church is much like putting on a conference. Once a month, time off and then what? This time a new bumper sticker comes to mind, “Try Church.”

Randy: Actually, the approach for starting this church is somewhat similar to the start of another great church: North Point Community Church….which, by the way also takes those involved in the local church and transplants them to start other churches (i.e. Buckhead and Brown’s Bridge….though the transplants do come from the same umbrella ministry). Go to their website to learn their history….especially in the beginning when Andy and the original gang used to eagerly anticipate the arrival of the day’s mail to see what, if anything they were going to be able to afford to pay for that week. I would say that Louie and his team are being wise to wait before settling down just yet. The approach seems more methodological than anything else. No need to hurry.

To interpret and to label this man’s effort as relevant as a “Try Church” bumper sticker quote does a grave disservice to the man and to the God he loves. I do hope you can find a new bumper sticker slogan in your repertoire of bumper stickers.

JM: Would biblical words be considered common? How about “church?”

Randy: Louie’s response to the question “Will this be a seeker church?” is that “We’re not using any kind of descriptive contemporary church adjectives to help us shape what Passion City Church is….we don’t use the common words that are defining churches.” I think that is a very good response. He says absolutely nothing about the commonality of biblical words…and in fact the word “church” is the last word in Passion City Church! There’s no relevant question here….just misguided conjecture. Please lighten up.

JM: What is a “life-changing transaction?”

Randy: Louie said people “need a life-changing transaction with their Creator”.
Transact (from dictionary.com) - to carry on or conduct (business, negotiations, activities, etc.) to a conclusion or settlement.

Isaiah 1:18
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

The above seems like a very good description of at least one very important “life-changing” transaction people can experience with their Creator.

JM: How do people “know” you exalt God?

Randy: Here, Louie says “When you come to Passion City Church, you’ll know that we’re here to exalt God, to paint a picture of Him, to be people who are humbled before him, to express him to the city and to the world”. My best answer to the question is as follows:

Exalt (again dictionary.com) - to praise; extol (definition #2)

If God is the one being praised and extolled, then you will know that God is being exalted. Can’t get much simpler.

JM: What if God gives it an older vibe?

Louie said: “We'd like to be a church where the people who are 50 always are leaning toward the people who are 18. I know that biblically, it's our place to lead and their place to respect their elders. But the church grows when we embrace them. I hope it has a youthful vibe”.

This is so completely biblical. The older leading the younger…the younger respecting the older…the baton of Christianity being passed to subsequent generations….a task at which most church’s seem to be failing miserably. I hope this becomes a church rooted in community and branching the globe!

The real relevance of age can be summed up as follows: We’re all the same age…eternal!

JM: What if God Himself rests and moves?

Randy: Louie said: “We aren't afraid at Passion City Church of being incredibly large. We're not intimidated by the thought of, "What if x number of people come?" We're also not afraid of being incredibly small. We just want to be a place where the presence of God rests and moves out to help this city and the cities of the world”.

I think you answered your own question here. He said he wants it to be a place where the presence of God (which is God!) both rests and moves! The man is hungry for the presence of God to rest upon the Church and simultaneously move out from where it rests to help this city and the cities of the world. Well…since God’s self-proclaimed intent is for His glory to fill the earth, it is completely appropriate and possible that His presence should rest and remain upon this Church (and ideally upon all churches) while at the same time moving outside the property boundaries of the ministry to make His glory fill the earth through the lives of those involved in the ministry. Now, that’s exactly how it should be.


JM: Why are these steps crazy?

Randy: Crazy is modern vernacular for “different, wild beyond dreams or expectations”

Ephesians 3:20-21
Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

That’s what I think he means by crazy!!



JM: I just don’t get some of the language. I know Giglio wants to reach people with the Gospel, what do some of those statements even mean? I hate to say it. Some of these statements remind me of a self-help book that just gives concepts without ever actually giving the help.

Randy: I speak as one who has been helped immensely by this man’s life and work.

JM: I don’t intend to be mean, however, that’s how they strikes me. I have some questions I would have liked to ask in the interview.
Some Questions
Some of the questions I have would apply to any church plant, especially, in a huge city like Atlanta. Also, moreso with those who are deem to be celebrities.

See my responses to another blog: http://clintclifton.wordpress.com/2009/01/14/th...

Note: I don't speak for Louie or anyone else at PCP...I speak from my own perspective about the matters that have been brought up.

Randy

I grew up in the area that this gathering will be held in. I hesitate to state it as a church, because of the concerns raised by Mark. It will not be reaching out to the community around it. The community around GAC is not the typical white college student community that Passion attracts.

Besides, there are enough churches in Atlanta, don't plant a new one, revive an old one so that there are not 1000 church corpses laying around the country.

Bro Tony,

I am out of town right now with limited access to the net.

I understand your cynacism to a point, but we have to understand that Jesus died for these brothers too. However wrong headed they are or even we are in our lives.

I was trying to point out their own inconsistency even though I'm sure they love Jesus and have right intentions.

Think....Jesus forgives you and me even when we're sinfully cynical or otherwise. :)

Mark

I probably shouldn't be so cynical.

Aren't there enough "Chant and Humm" style worship churches in atlanta already? Isn't he a member of one?

I think you are spot on Mark.

This will give people a chance once a month to go and see their favorite christian artist in a "real" church setting and they can sway back and forth and get that "tingly", holy spirit "feeling" as they enter a quasi-meditative trance state.

I guess worshiping in "spirit" is better than not worshiping at all.

I just read that article myself, and had some of the same concerns. I lke Giglio and Tomlin and Redman, and I'm really appreciate of wha the Passion movement has done to teach young people about the supremecy of Christ.

But I'm skeptical of this. I hope I'm wrong, but it doesn't seem like they're really committed to having a real church.

I mean, they're waiting on Tomlin to get off of his tour before they can really go full-steam? Are you being called to do this or not?

Wade,

Thanks for stopping by.

I agree with you. I scratch my head at some of the statements.

I am reading the book Dear Timothy for a Pastoral Theology course. In Tom Ascol's first chapter he mentioned how, as a pastor, the local church must come first. This includes any external ministries he may be involved in.

Giglio even mentions, basically, how serious Jesus is about the local church, but then just doesn't seem to conclude his approach with the same seriousness. Confusing.

Mark

Your questions are spot-on, Mark.

I have heard nothing but encouraging words that have come from people who have heard Giglio. Tomlin's lyrics are solid. Surely their partnership would be welcomed/appreciated by *Georgians* (not merely those in Atlanta). Since Giglio's sermon (can I use that word?) content is clearly derived from Scripture, why then change methodology when it comes to planting a church? I don't understand the on-again-off-again strategy when I ponder the purpose/mission, the beauty, the unity, et al of the local church.

Kevin,

These are things I just don't always understand. That is, how some people will reference the Bible only for certain things when it comes to ministry, church, etc. Why not all things?

Mark