Mark Driscoll On Prophetic Dreams and Seeing the Future

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Fellow blogger (of ill-repute) and friend, Frank Turk recently wrote an Open Letter to Mark Driscoll. In the letter Turk took Driscoll to task over some of the things he said about cessationism.

The summary of Driscoll’s view may be most clearly seen when he said that “cessationism is worldliness” and then sealed the deal stating, “So it goes to Atheism, Deism and this will be controversial, cessationism.”

Side note: Before getting to the main issue I want to address something Driscoll said just after the worldliness comment. As part of making his assertion case for cessationism being worldliness Driscoll quotes Renee Descartes’ famous phrase, “I think therefore I am” asserting that cessationists use the same type of individualism and rationalism thereby establishing a faulty epistemology. If this were true about cessationists then why would they ever use Scripture to back up their claims? My brief point on this matter is that Descartes’ position (and Driscoll’s assertion as it follows) is self-defeating and, therefore not at all a supporting position for the cessationist. Although more could be said, I am addressing this one issue to show how a little careful thinking can alleviate such a ridiculous charge toward fellow Christians. The following quote briefly explains.

 Descartes felt that his method brought him finally to the indubitable and foundational truth that he himself existed. Even if everything else he believed was an illusion, he at least needed to exist in order to do the doubting in the first place. Thus the famous dictum: “I think, therefore I am.” But Descartes was here not scrupulous enough as a philosopher. By taking as his premise “I think,” he had already begged the question of his existence (asserting the “I”). This was no more helpful, really, than arguing: “I stink, therefore I exist.” Descartes should have more stringently premised only that “Thinking is occurring”—from which it does not logically follow that “I exist.”1

Back to the main issue. Reading Frank’s letter and Driscoll’s comments on cessationism reminded me of a series on spiritual warfare by Driscoll from a few years back. I remember him saying something to the effect that God gave him visions or dreams about people in his congregation. So I looked up the series and found exactly what Driscoll said and I was right. I’ve posted the transcript of the section below along with an audio clip and the full video.

I have wondered for the longest time if any other Christians would testify to God showing them the future and giving them prophetic dreams. The circumstances this week provide the perfect opportunity for my curiosity to ask if anyone else has had this experience.

Anyone?

I start getting prophetic dreams. God’s showing me the future. Ah, a gift of discernment kinda comes to the fore for me. Not all the time, but I can see somebody and I just know their story.

I remember walking up to people, and one women, telling her, “You know last night did your husband grab you by the throat and throw you up against the wall? Threaten you? And tell you that if you told me that uh, he would kill you?” She’s crying. She says, “How did you know?” I don’t know. I see it. I see it like a film.

Go up to another person. “Hey, I believe that you were sexually abused when you were young. Did so and so do this to you when you were this age? And you know, did a comforting spirit come to you at that point and, a demon masquerading as an angel of light?” And he said, “Yeah, how did you know?” I was like,”I saw it.” I started having dreams. I started seeing things. I started reading people’s proverbial mail.”

I did not know what to do with any of this because in my theology I’m a cessasionist. That means that I believe the supernatural essentially ceased in the early church. So we don’t have charasmatic gifts today and the demonic activity isn’t real, especially, for believers.2

Below is an audio clip of the excerpt from part 1 of the Spiritual Warfare series.

In part 3 of the Spiritual Warfare series, Christus Victor, Driscoll shares more about the visions he had about the church members’ lives including sins, threats, molestations, etc.

Some people actually see things. This may be gift of discernment. On occasion, I see things. I see things. Uh, like I was meeting with one person and they..they didn’t know this, but they were abused when they were a child. And I said, “When you were a child you were abused. This person did this to you, physically touched you this way.” He said, “How do you know?” I said, “I don’t know. It’s like I got a TV right here. I’m seeing it.” He said, “No that never happened.” I said, “Go ask him. Go ask him if they actually did what I think they did and I see that they did.” They went and asked this person – when I was a little kid did you do this? And the person said, “Yeah, but you were only like a year or two old. How do you remember that?” He said, “Well, pastor Mark told me.”

I’m not a guru. I’m not a freak. I don’t talk about this. If I did talk about it everybody would want to meet with me and I’d end up like one of those guys on TV. But some of you have this visual ability to see things.

Uh, uh, there was one women I dealt with. She never told her husband that she had committed adultery on him early in the relationship. I said, “You know.” She’s sitting there with her husband. I said, “You know I think the root of all this..I think Satan has a foothold in your life because you’ve never told your husband about that really tall blonde guy that you met at the bar. And then you went back to the hotel. And you laid on your back. And you undressed yourself. And he climbed on top of you. And you had sex with him. And snuggled up with him for a while. And deep down in your heart, even though you had just met him, you desired him because secretly he is the fantasy body type.” I said, “You remember that place it was that cheap hotel with that certain colored bed spread. You did it..you had sex with the light on because you weren’t ashamed and you wanted him to see you. And you wanted to see him.” She was just looking at me like… I said,”You know, it was about ten years ago.” I see everything. She says…she looks at her husband. He says, “Is that true?” She says, “Yeah. He was 6-2, blonde hair, blue eyes. Yeah.”

Some of you when you’re counseling you will see things. I mean you will, you will literally gift of discernment see things. I can’t explain it. It doesn’t happen all the time.

Sometimes your counselee, they will see things. Ye..eh..there’s pa..I found this with people…ok, now let me…I’m going to ask the demon questions. You tell me what they say. They don’t say anything. I say, “What do you hear?” And they say, “Nothing.” They say, “But I’m seeing stuff.” Oh, oh, well tell me. What’s that? “I’m seeing..you know when I was little my grandpa molested me. I didn’t know that.” I said, “Well, let’s not assume it’s true. Go ask your grandfather.” Grandpa says, “Yeeeaah, when you were little I molested you.” Grandpa was assuming they’d be too young to remember. So he’s only molest grand kids up to a certain age. But they saw it.

It’s the supernatural. It’s…it’s, it’s the whole other realm. It’s like the Matrix. You can take the blue pill, you take the red pill. You go into this whole other world. And, and, and that’s the way it works.

So I say – tell me everything you hear, tell me everything you see. And sometimes I see things too. I see things too. I’ve seen women raped. I’ve seen children molested. I’ve seen people abused. I’ve seen people beaten. I’ve seen horrible things done. Horrible things done. I’ve seen children dedicated in occultic groups and demons come upon them as an infant by invitation. And I wasn’t present for any of it, but I’ve seen it visibly.

Upon occasion when I get up to preach I’ll see just like a screen in front of me. I’ll see somebody get raped or abused and then I’ll track ‘em down and say, “Look I had this vision. Let me tell you about it.” All true.

One I had I was sitting in my office at the old, uh, Earl Building. This gal walks by. Nice gal, member of the church. This is when the church was small. And there’s just like a TV was there and I saw the night before her husband threw her up against the wall, had her by the throat, was physically violent with her. And she said, “That’s it, I’m telling the pastors.” And he said, “If you do I’ll kill you.” He was a very physically abusive man.

She was walking by and I just saw it. It was like a TV. And I said, “Hey, come here for a second.” I said, “Last night did your husband throw you up against the wall and have you by the throat, physically assault you and tell you if you told anyone he would kill you?” And she just starts balling. She says, “How did you know?” I said, “Jesus told me.”

I called the guy on the phone,”Hey, I need you to come to the office.” I didn’t give him any clue. He comes in and I said, “Dude, what’d you do to your wife last night? Why’d you do this? Why’d you throw her up against the wall?” And he gets very angry. They’re sitting on the couch and he says, “Why did you tell him?” I said,”She didn’t Jesus did. Jesus did.”3

Below is an audio clip of the excerpt from part 3 of the Spiritual Warfare series.

Below is video of the full 2008 message Introduction to Spiritual Warfare.

Below is video of the full 2008 message Christus Victor.

And your thoughts are?

________________________

  1. Greg L. Bahnsen, Always Ready: Directions For Defending the Faith (Nacogdoches, TX: Covenant Media Press, 1996), 166-167, fn.
  2. Driscoll, Mark. Introduction to Spiritual Warfare, 2008. (From about the minute mark 11:13 through 12:22)
  3. Driscoll, Mark. Christus Victor, 2008. (From about the minute mark 19:14 through 23:54)
Tags: , , ; Categories: apologetics,Church Issues,theology
The above article was posted on August 4, 2011 by Mark Lamprecht.
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{ 47 comments… read them below or add one }

1 SAGordon August 4, 2011 at 12:54 pm

Wow. I’m essentially speechless. This brings up SERIOUS concerns for me regarding Driscoll’s ministry. This moves him into the camp with others like Copeland, Hinn, Bentley, et al. It sounds to me like mystic religion.

2 John Dobbs August 4, 2011 at 2:07 pm

I think he’s seen too many episodes of Medium.

3 Craig August 4, 2011 at 2:48 pm

Yes, SAGordon’s comment is a textbook overreaction. While I don’t believe that Driscoll’s statement is true for every cessationalist I still respect the man. I don’t doubt his faith or good intensions.

4 Craig August 4, 2011 at 2:49 pm

I can be found at @stcraigory on Twitter for any replys.

5 Richard August 4, 2011 at 8:03 pm

Craig, I could likewise state that your reaction is a textbook underreaction. This is more than just a disagreement between brothers. If he has indeed stated (he has) that a natural progression of a cessationist position is athiesm (he did), he has stated that this is more than a “mere doctrinal” issue; rather he has elevated it to a salvific issue, has he not? Overreaction, hardly. I say right on cue. Mark has made statements that, of course, are either true or false. If false (no doubt the the text would shot as such) than repentance is in order via biblical command, right? I cannot sit in your camp, sir, respecting a man that doesn’t respect the word of God.

6 Richard August 4, 2011 at 8:05 pm

*shout, that is.

7 Frank Turk August 4, 2011 at 9:10 pm

Well, I have a purple suit of armor with giant green antenna. We all have weird stuff.

8 Mark August 4, 2011 at 9:26 pm

Scott, I’m speechless too. He does remind me of a mystic.

John, can I laugh through my speechlessness?

Craig, what would the proper reaction be? I think Scott was more referencing Driscoll’s claim to having visions of the past, present and future.

Richard, I’m with you. Driscoll painting cessationists as atheists in any sense is uncalled for and an overreaction.

Frank, do any theological red flags go up?

9 Griffin Gulledge August 4, 2011 at 9:35 pm

This may be the single funniest thing I’ve ever read on a Christian blog ever.

10 Matt Svoboda August 4, 2011 at 10:20 pm

I’m a little surprised by these reactions. Wait, was that also a textbook overreaction? If so, I apologize. I hate textbooks.

First,

I think Driscolls comments on cessationism were totally inaccurate and I’m not sure how he got to that point. I am not a cessationist, but I would never say the things Driscoll said about it.

Second,

Have you all not been paying attention for this long to Driscoll’s views? He has always been openly a “charismatic calvinist.”

What is ironic is some of you alls comments about his charismatic beliefs are as accurate as his comments about cessationism. You all are acting like only the wildest charismatics claim to have visions. In fact, Sam Storms has claimed the exact same type of things in his experiences of becoming a “charismatic calvinist.”

Let’s not repeat Driscolls mistake in how he dealt with cessationalism. Nothing in those quotes(or total sermons) are out of the ordinary for charismatics of the biblically solid, evangelical, calvinist kind.

I am not a cessationist and I am not a charismatic of the Sam Storms, Driscoll, Piper, Mahaney, Chandler kind… It seems to me that maybe both sides need to educate themselves on the other side.

11 Mark August 4, 2011 at 10:40 pm

Matt, some of whose comments? Not much has been said here directly to Driscoll’s claims. How many orthodox charismatic Christians claim to get visions of past, present and future acts from other peoples’ lives? I’ve never heard that outside of some of the TV personalities that I wouldn’t watch seriously. Can you think of any Scriptural support for such visions?

12 Matt Svoboda August 4, 2011 at 10:45 pm

Mark,

I am not arguing from Scripture- I never said I believe that. What I am saying is that it is naive to think Driscoll is the only charismatic calvinist that has claimed visions. Read Sam Storms’ “Convergence.” Also, Mahaney has said things like this in the past- visions, insights into peoples lives, etc…

Comments such as comparing him to false teachers sich as Copeland and Hinn. His views are typical of conservative, evangelical charismatics. Also, Driscoll does not hold to many outlandish things that the “crazies” in the charismatic camps do hold too.

I am baffled by how uninformed many on this thread seem to be about conservative charismatics… The things Driscoll talks about are no different than Chandler, Mahaney, Storms, etc.

13 Matt Svoboda August 4, 2011 at 10:54 pm

I watched a long discussion between Tullian, Sproul, Driscoll, and Chandler today… I am glad they arent comparing each other to false teachers.

14 SAGordon August 4, 2011 at 11:17 pm

Well…

First, I will plead guilty to not knowing of Driscoll’s charismatic leanings and the ‘audible voice’ call into ministry. I stand by the fact that he now scares me as one who is more influenced by mystic religious tendencies than a solid biblical world view.

Second, for Craig, classic, yes. Overreacting, nope. I don’t know of anyone else who makes claims that the ‘gift of discernment’ functions as Driscoll describes. I certainly do not see witness of that in Scripture, nor do I find it in early, orthodox believers. The ones who claimed ecstatic visions and utterances and to have knowledge of specific events were dismissed as unorthodox mystics.

Third, Matt, again I will admit ignorance of Driscoll’s extreme and biblically untenable continuationism. I can allow for brothers who are continuationists…even though I ardently disagree with their theology. If any of the ‘conservative charismatics’ you mention have made assertions in accord with Driscoll’s, then I find myself with the same wariness regarding them as well.

Fourth, my primary thought in analogizing Driscoll’s comments as commensurate with those of Hinn et al., was to illustrate that if those men made these comments we would immediately attribute it to their horrific theology. While I concur that to this point I believe Driscoll to be in good standing on soteriology, etc., I am fearful that such experiences open doors which erode sound theology. I am fear of that for him.

15 SAGordon August 4, 2011 at 11:20 pm

I am fearful of that for him.

16 Mark August 4, 2011 at 11:22 pm

Matt, you’re comparing a few, if that many, passing comments of people thinking along the lines of mystics for Driscoll’s position on visions with the hour+(?) Driscoll took to make several allegations against cessationists. Those allegations were of worldliness and atheism. I wonder which is worse, being lumped in with heretics or unbelievers.

By the way, when you watched the long discussion between Tullian, Sproul, Driscoll, and Chandler today did were you thankful Driscoll did not compare other Christians to atheists? (He didn’t at the juncture did he?)

Where’s my pass?

17 Richard August 4, 2011 at 11:25 pm

Matt, the implications of God speaking audibly today are far-reaching. I am not shocked by a claim to hear and see things directly from God; you indeed hear this on many fronts, right? But, if God is indeed speaking audibly today….

Listen in – What are the implications of God speaking audibly today?
http://tiny.cc/vbibm – part 1
http://tiny.cc/o06v9 – part 2
http://tiny.cc/ep92r – part 3

Can someone really see and hear these things from God? If (bear with me here) it is true that you cannot….would you not at least agree that there is a seriousness to his claims? If we are right (I would argue the text is right) then who/what is Mr. Driscoll hearing from?

18 Matt Svoboda August 4, 2011 at 11:58 pm

Mark,

I already said I disagree with Driscolls statements regarding cessationism- im not sure what your point is.

Im just saying- dont make the same mistake he did.

19 Matt Svoboda August 5, 2011 at 12:01 am

Richard,

Again- I am not arguing for or against Driscolls position. (but I will say I do not line up with him on a few Holy Spirit related issues- but I also dont line up with MacArthur).

The only point I am trying to make is that Driscoll is not being real outlandish. If you all want to call him out on this- which is fine with me- also call out Storms, Chandler, Mahaney, and on some fronts Piper. Driscolls view are quite common amongst theologically- CONSERVATIVE charismatics.

20 Matt Svoboda August 5, 2011 at 12:06 am

Scott,

Thank you for the clarification as to what in fact you are fearful of… I would also say that it is an area Driscoll and others must be cautious in.

I would just caution you as well in balancing Driscolls views on this along with everything he has taught about his views of God, salvation, Scripture, atonement, sanctification, etc… We know he believes in the authority, sufficiency, inerrancy, inspiration, and infalliblity of the word. We have to consider that along with his more charismatic leanings. In fact, it is his view of Scripture that safeguards him from heresy even with charismatic leanings.

21 Matt Svoboda August 5, 2011 at 12:09 am

I feel like I have said it a lot already, but I want to be clear.

1) Driscoll was absolutely wrong with his comments towards cessationism. Not only were they not called for, they were inaccurate.

2) I do not agree with all of Driscolls charismatic leanings.

3) I am not here defending Driscoll. I simply am pointing out that his views are quite commonplace for theologically-conservative, evangelical charismatics. He is not outside of orthodoxy. It is crazy to pit him with heretics.

22 prchrbill August 5, 2011 at 2:06 am

Matt,
I have noticed that you have to keep repeating yourself. That is too bad, because I think you have been clear in your stand. However, I think people are reacting more to you not being a cessationist, as you admit, more than to any statement they may be misreading. Not judging, just pointing out what I think I saw.
Regular Comment.
As you can tell, a misunderstanding of what spiritual gifts were/are for is what produces a now ‘looney’ Mark Driscoll. I personally am not convinced of the cessationist argument, however, neither am I convinced by the charismatic one. Nothing that Driscoll describes doing sounds anything like the biblical spiritual gift. You see ‘rapes’ and ‘incest’ and ‘abuse’ like you are watching it on TV? Really? And you thought we needed to hear about it? I am sure when the scripture tells us to not speak of the things done in darkness, that this is exactly the kind of stuff it is talking about. Here are my questions:
1.Has Mark Driscoll notified the Police of the rapes, child abuse, domestic abuse cases that he has “Seen on TV”?
2.Doesn’t the God given right for government to perform civil punishment being thwarted by Driscoll, if he is not reporting this?
3.If he does have this “spiritual gift” to see some really brutally ugly stuff, Has he sought for God to take the gift away, so as not to see things so vile while he is trying to preach God’s word?
4.Why are all these things he is seeing related to sex and violence? Does that speak more to his own sinfulness and less to the Holy Spirit gifting folks as He sees fit?

I think there is an underlying problem and if there were Elders at Mars Hill they should be taking care of this before he turns into Jim Jones part 2.

with that, I am prchrbill

23 minimus August 5, 2011 at 10:55 pm

have NONE of you prayed through deliverance of sins (committed by or against you) from your past? Jesus is so loving and merciful to allow others to help you get free from sins and sins’ effects…

and I’m not a Driscoll follower

24 SAGordon August 5, 2011 at 11:04 pm

That just makes you a superhero!

25 SAGordon August 5, 2011 at 11:05 pm

Minims, interesting. Not cogent, but interesting.

26 Josh Elsom August 6, 2011 at 1:26 am

Did those things happen though? That is the question. Mark claims to have experienced those things and apparently, according to his testimony, they actually were true.

Do you think he was deliberately fabricating these stories so as to supply material for his sermon series?

27 John August 6, 2011 at 6:17 pm

I was in to Buddism for a time and this sounds a lot like what I experienced in that religion, The leaders would see things mostly about what allready happened, nothing from the futer although they would try to prdict it with verying degrees of success.

28 John August 6, 2011 at 6:22 pm

I think he’s playing with demons not the hily spirit.

29 John August 6, 2011 at 6:23 pm

sorry, the Holy Spirit

30 John August 6, 2011 at 6:27 pm

We have been forgiven of sin, we don’t need to dredge up the past because old things have past away behold all things nare new. It you have some thing from your past throughing it in your grandfathers face is not the way to deal with it, forgivness is.

31 Frank! August 10, 2011 at 12:16 am

In addition to the names of convservative charismatics (is Mahaney, Grudem, Piper) well have to add Bob Caughlin, and Matt Slick. Indeed, for years Slick has been given grief over his Damascus road encounter with the Lord.

16

32 Rayan August 11, 2011 at 12:28 pm

I hope to see a more diverse GLBT gay/lesbain wecloming service that believe in supernatural psychic abilities and develpment and angel reiki for healing.
I Rayan,36, have mediumship abilities: can coomunicate with angels(can teach others in development, but here in Quebec, Canada most prophetic churches are antigay. Need inclusion of Gospel of Thomas(jesus) twin who married Mary Magdalene and in Indain taught reincarnation(past lives).
Most mediums are anti gay, hasidic jews and pagans and christains are left with interfaith churches which are antichrist in overall theology.

33 Joe Church August 11, 2011 at 4:30 pm

I think is a bit of an over-reaction, sounds like you took personal offense to Driscoll and instead of engaging the issue, you are focusing on the man.

Driscoll has described himelf as a Charasmatic with a seatbelt. I’ve never heard him say anything that leads me to believe he is lying, or deceiving anyone just for a sermon series. It amazes me how quickly people will dismiss spiritual gifts after some strenusous Biblical gymnastics to make a principle based case against it. Most of the time I think buy into cessationism simply because they have never experienced a spiritual gift. Which if you think about it is simply a form of reasoning out of ignorance.

I’m not a cessationist and happen to agree with Driscoll. If you google Mark Driscoll you can see many other examples of peopel over-reacting to him, misunderstanding him and taking him out of context. An internet blog isn’t exactly the best place to seek out truth and understanding. I love how Driscoll makes fun of bloggers and easily offended people. Not to be rude, but we do not have a right not to be offended.

34 Paula August 11, 2011 at 9:50 pm

Why, if he is getting these visions from God, does he have to ASK the people if such and such happened to them? Isn’t he sure?

I see lots of stuff like that, when I have a hunch that something may have happened to someone. It’s called INTUITION and a lot of people have it. Even occultists and other deceivers can read people and convince them they know something about them that they don’t. Often they themselves don’t even realize they’re doing it.

35 Paula August 11, 2011 at 9:51 pm

And I just can’t believe he was dumb enough to invoke The Matrix. Good grief. Well, maybe I can believe it.

36 Paula August 11, 2011 at 9:59 pm

Joe Church, did anyone ever tell you that this sort of statement:

“Most of the time I think buy into cessationism simply because they have never experienced a spiritual gift. Which if you think about it is simply a form of reasoning out of ignorance.”

is a good example of combining the two logical fallacies “circumstantial ad hominem” with “hasty generalization.”

You make a circumstantial ad hominem assertion about these nameless cessationists you personally have run into, and then judge all cessationists by that false assertion. Wow. Talk about reasoning out of ignorance.

37 Paula August 11, 2011 at 10:02 pm

and Joe Church, here’s another fallacy:

“If you google Mark Driscoll you can see many other examples of peopel over-reacting to him, misunderstanding him and taking him out of context.”

Well then, we must be doing it too!

Forgive me, if after that display of reasoning ability, I trust my own reading of and hearing of Driscoll over the last 6 years than yours.

38 Josh Elsom August 11, 2011 at 11:00 pm

So Driscoll is like an occultist because he has experienced visions that came true and were edifying to the Church? So the Devil is now about the business of roaming around like a ravenous lion seeking whom he might edify?

39 Joe Church August 12, 2011 at 8:10 am

Paula,

Its hard to read “tone” on a text only message board, so I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt for now. First of all I want to clarify that I am not engaging in ad hominem, nor am I making hasty generalizations. I’m not judging anyone or reasoning out of ignorance. Mine was a short opinion post on a touchy topic, it was not intended to be a lengthy disposition on my views. You are over-reacting and making some rather wild accusations and there is simply no basis for it. The truth is you don’t know my motives or my heart and quite frankly, it would be nearly impossible to convey to you these things using short back and forth posts on a blog.

I don’t intend to get into nasty exchanges with you, but from the way you worded your responses, it seems very emotional and reactional to me. I would just encourage you to check your motives, are you dialoging out of love and charity, or are you reacting out of emotional and personal offense?

40 Joe Church August 12, 2011 at 8:24 am

Paula,

You are doing it again, and yes, that was sort of my point…I said this blog post seemed like an over-reaction to me, thats my opinion.

I’m not interested in defending Driscoll as a person per say, what I am interested in is defending good debate and proper methods for clear thinking. Now I could be completely wrong, but it has been my experience that most Driscoll haters (you seem to be one) have actually NOT heard or read much of what Driscoll has said and written. There is a lot of “hear say” and over-reaction going on regarding his ministry. Can I ask you how many hours of his sermons have you listened to? How many of his books have you read?

Its my experience that most of the time you see nasty blog posts about Driscoll its either something he has already repented of and sought forgiveness and come under correction from the spiritual authority he is under, or its an over dramatization of something he has said and didn’t actually mean the way the blogger is spelling it out. Again, I’m not saying that is what is happening here, but those are my experiences.

So how should we dialogue and reason with clear thinking about these types of issues. Well first, I love what Augustine said. “In the essentials, unity. In the non-essentials, liberty. In all things, charity”. I think if we could really embrace that concept and apply it to our communications with others, it would go a long way to building unity and love. I don’t see love or charity in your sharp and superrior comments.

Secondly, if we are going to speak with any sort of meaning or authority, we should know what we are talking about. Speaking out of ignorance is inappropriate and should not be something a Christian is engaged in. This is what urks me the most, so many of the flaming bloggers against Driscoll start off with things like “now to be fair, I’ve never read his book”, or “I’ve never heard of Driscoll before today”, etc. This is like reviewing a book you’ve never read. Who do we think we are?

Lastly, I’d like to assert that we do NOT have a right not to be offended. Some people are so overly sensitive and react out of emotion that it is impossible to think clearly about a subject. Especially in Christian culture today, we have so many people who are so easily offended and who like to take non-essential issues and turn them into essential issues. This is not helpful to anyone and makes us look likes bickering fools to the outside world. Jesus says you will know my sheep by their love for one another. So what are we telling the world when we react out of emotion to each other and shoot sharp rhetorical barbs at each other in a smug arrogant attack. All the while we posture ourselves as the “better Christian” because our arrogant views are the “only way a self-respecting Christian would think”.

Again, this is just my opinion, but I think we need to approach all things with humilty and charity. I don’t see how making snarky dart like comments on blogs is edifying to the body or showing love for one another. Its so sad to me when I see fellow Christians tear each other down out of some sense of pride, arrogance, ignorance or emotional reaction.

Paula, I assume you are a Chrisitan, and I love you. I hope you will take what I’ve said in love and receive it as such.

41 Paula August 13, 2011 at 3:37 am

“I don’t doubt his faith or good intensions.”

After all the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

42 Alice August 13, 2011 at 4:11 pm

Mark Driscoll wears his Mickey Mouse T-shirt proudly. It gives him super powers of perception. Must be those dog-gone big ears. They can hear things most people fear to talk about even from a pulpit.

Remember the old song from the Mickey Mouse Club? Here is Driscoll’s rendition.

M I C See, I can see and hear things I can’t explain. I have really been annointed.

K E Y Why, because God has given me special abilities to see through walls and into the bedrooms AND the hearts and minds of men and women. He has also told me there is more to being a continuationist then you think, and you ain’t seen nothing yet. Keep that Mickey Mouse T-shirt on, with those ears…..we can even FLY!!!!

Let’s be reminded that but for the grace of God go all of us. Pray for him.

43 Kate U August 31, 2011 at 11:39 am

I came upon this blog quite by accident and had never before heard of Mark Driscoll, but after listening to his lecture #3, (transcript is in this blog) I have a few comments.

I know a few people who get picture and word images, some even get “video” images (silent usually), though none so consistently sexual or graphic. Could Mark’s “visions” be coming from the dark side?

I have concern about his truthfulness in reporting. e.g. When people confront those who molested them years before, perpetrators do not say, “…yeah…I did…how did you know that? you were too young to remember…” They look at you like you’re crazy and deny it.

I wouldn’t worry about the “not 100%” right all the time, because even the best can be tricked by their imagination – which is why you would never act on such heavy-duty “visions” until they have been affirmed somehow, prodded in prayer, in conference with a spiritually gifted friend, or scripture in some way.

Also, when you do see something, for instance if it pops into your mind during healing prayer, you might say something like, “I am getting the feeling that there may have been some kind of abuse in your past. Could this be true?” and let the Holy Spirit reveal whatever the person is ready for. Even if you have details, you’d say something vague like, “I had an odd image last night about a man throwing a woman against a wall, and this may sound strange, but I think I’m supposed to ask if that means anything to you.”

Mark Driscoll sounds self-sure, proud, and cocky about his gifting, wherever it comes from, and to me that’s a huge red flag. People truly gifted by the Holy Spirit with that kind of “word of knowledge” usually aren’t proclaiming it as “Look at me, I do this, and I amaze people! Look at the detail I get!!” but rather are much more careful how and where they share. Often, things so revealed are not to be shared with anyone, but simply to guide your own prayers for a person or situation. I would very highly doubt the HS would be prompting someone to confront a woman with an affair 10 years previous, in front of her husband. To me such a first step would be neither loving nor wise.

44 J.v.d.A. February 14, 2012 at 5:48 pm

I suspected Driscoll was full of it but this utter nonsense about spiritual warfare is just astonishing. What possible evidence could he have for any of the statements he makes in these ridiculous videos. What a total fool.

45 Pearl June 8, 2012 at 5:49 pm

wow you guys must be following the devil to not understand what he is saying which is right from the Word. I pray all your blind eyes be open & that you would see the Truth and know the Truth for it will set you free. I came upon this by accident but I’m thankful I did cause he is speaking the Truth that so many people pretend like it’s not happening. Or is it not happening cause you are a friend of the enemy and therefore against God so the enemy doesn’t need to bother you. you are on his side? Maybe you should read 1 John and see what the Word says. He not preaching anything against the Word of God!!! Wake up church!!!

46 patricia August 13, 2012 at 11:41 am

This is a hot topic for sure. As a veteran of charismania, I eventually began to question some of the “emperor’s new clothes” type explanations given for things that didn’t add up. For instace in one church, a young woman with lots of emotional problems, was always up at the front shaking and jerking spasmodically while receiving prayer. For an entire year I watched her receiving ministry and yet she continually needed to have this same experience and was never abe to reach a place of being a truly different person. Explanations given for this varied: God can’t heal us all at once because we couldn’t handle it and we would be harmed by it. Healing is a process and it takes time. The Holy Spirit is what is causing the jerking and shaking, she is under the power of God and its like having high voltage electricity running through your system when God is near. I began to ask myself, if she is truly in the presence of God, how can she come out having had an emotional and spiritual expereince and yet be so unchanged that she needs constant holy jolts to reinforce her so she can get through her life? I doubted the the Spirit was this weak or ineffectual or that he routinely performed this “service” on demand as was being claimed. One of the pastors rollerbladed during worship; apparantley this was because it helped him to worship more freely, perhaps the gliding sensation of rollerblading added a feeling of flying freely as if in heaven? Don’t know, just guessing. Persons groaning and grunting and crying out were said to be being delivered or birthing something in the spirit. Outlandish things were explained away by saying that God is sovereign and can do as He pleases, we can’t put him in a box. But he has himself defined boundaries he doens’t go beyond and cannot deny His own word. One thing I eventually came to realize is that charismatics regularly get the flesh – and emotions are part of the flesh – confused with the Spirit. Another disturbing fact was that often the acid test of whether something was of God went something like ” if it contains supernatural knowledge that this person could not have known otherwise then it is a true spiritual gift”. Well, by that test, the slave girl with the spriit of divination would have passed with flying colors!

The church today has placed more faith in the methods of man, esp. ones borrowed from the corporate world, motivational speakings, marketing techniquest,etc, than it does in the Holy Spirit and His abilty to do His job effectively and the Word of God. As a result, I believe that modern christians have trouble discerning between the things of God, the things of man, the flesh and the spirit and spiritual deception. I’ve seen people think they were “flowing in the Holy Spirit” when all that was going on was having a fleshly sensual experience. Yet anyone who questioned that was soundly put down with accusations of having a legalistic spriit or a religious spirit. We are in the word only topically, via little journals that pre digest God’s word for us and hand it to us in a soundbite. We are unable to discern the difference between God’s ways and His character and nature, and how he would typically interact or behave and that of paganism and spiritism. One church I attended, the pastor introduced the candidate for assistant pastor as being ” gifted in the martial arts” as one of his ministry qualifications and then proceeded to describe how the church was going to teach martial arts as an outreach! This from a baptist pastor, and his potentail assistant who both graduated from a baptist seminary! They both saw no coflict between a practice rooted in pagan beliefs and mysticism and biblical christianity and figured you could just take the parts you wanted that were of benefit to you and offered no extremely obvious wrong. Fifty years ago this would not even have been debateable in the church. Apparently we now have some superior revelation about being able to freely imbibe of worldly things that the early church didn’t have. We get blinded when we think our ways and God’s ways are the same and we assume that He values what we value. He says otherwise in the word.

So, as one coming out of the charismatic church, I can say that when my charismatic friends point to some of the goings on they are accusotmed to and say “this is what is meant in the bible by being a spirit filled church and moving in spiritual gifts” I am not sure that this is what is referenced by the bible. The Holy Spirit always brings humilty and convicting and repentance, not the braggadocious presumption and arrogant lack of reverence seen so often in certain situations and ministries. I am always suspcious of claims like ” Newly revealed ten keys to the kingdom” type stuff. But at the same time, I think God is sovereign and does in His mercy intervene in desperate or extenuating circumstances where we are not able to see or do not know or are in trouble and then the word becomes applied in a living way.

A good example of what I am thinking of is found in John Bevere’s boo, Heart’s Ablaze. I am frankly bothered by John’s claim that God directed him to write this book to benefit the church as that almost places it on par with scripture; this is a vast leap from saying one has had God speak into his personal life about a matter. Why is another book needed? Yet, he does make some valid points about how our hearts change and God’s image within us changes when we chose self over a life of obedience. He describes the story of a very godly woman who makes the sad discovery that her husband is a practicing homosexual with a pornography problem who has been arrested for soliciting sex from an undercover policeman. So she seeks the Lord as to what He would have her do. God responded to her by saying that she had scriptural grounds to divorce him, and if she did, He would still bless her. But if she would stay and fight for her husband’s life in prayer, God would bring Him out of his sinful lifestyle and would bless her doubly. So she obeyed and fought for him in prayer. He is now a deeply compasionate, saved pastor and God did indeed bring him out of his sin and bondage to repentance. Its because of stories like this that I believe God can and does intervene in certain situations and stories like these also excite and build my faith, that it is possible to see extraordinary things happen. This kind of story I rarely ever hear cessationists tell. It doesn’t seem much of a choice, either the three ring circus of charismania with its lack of discernment and hodge podge of unblical stuff mixed in with truth, the counterfeit mixed among the real,or the biblically correct but seemly cold and lifeless brand of faith that oddly has the effect of neutralizing the kind of faith that allows people to be led of God to take risks and see things happen. It seems to result in a kind of safe ultra orthodoxy that is none the less, somewhat lacking in life.

I don’t see how the warning in revelation against adding or taking away from the bible automatically means hearing from God equals scripture. If this were true then why aren’t the words of the prophets who Saul accompanied included with s critpure, if all revelation from God equals scripture? The bible says the gifts are for the building up of the body. Does the body still need building up? Obviously more so than ever. So I am not on board with all that is charismania but not entirely convinced of the cessationist argument either. The worldly spirit is so strong that many churches have unsaved people in key positions. In the world of worship, the new thing is the copyrighting and licencing of worship music; music that comes of a gift God has given for the church to worship Him with. A very domineering person I know insisted that musicians are “entitled to be paid for their work”. Has this idea ever been the practice of the church in times past? is this not yet again another example of the commericalized of christendom? What ever happened to freely you have received, freely give? Or what do you have that you did not recieve? Apparently we are superior to the early church in knowlege, practice and revleation. Hmmm. I don’t know that I have anything particularly astute to add but like many I am disburbed and see a wave of deception washing over the church. Many are so lulled to sleep that they don’t notice that the Holy Spirit seems to have withdrawn Himself somewhat from us. This is something to be extremely concerned about. The cessationist/charismatic issue is only one part of a larger problem. I think we wind up with empty countefeits and deceptive delusions precisely when we have departed and become like the Laodicean church but dont’ know it.

47 worldhops2013 March 20, 2013 at 7:26 pm

Greetings friend, I’m Melissa Crawford and I appreciate the prophecy that I found on your webpage. My husband wanted me to invite you to share with our live video streaming e-revival audience as soon as possible. At Spirit University he is training a team of prophetic students and we are all receiving end time visions, dreams and words like yours. One of our students has been seeing fireballs falling from Heaven and as you know, one actually fell on Russia.

Many other prophetic signs are being confirmed at our e-Revival.

Everyone receives a prophetic word by my husband James Crawford; if they request one and we have an e-Revival every day! Today we had 33 live views during our live video streaming webcast. We would love to have you or anybody else’s prophecies shared at God’s revival!

Times you can call in to share:
Mon – Fri at 10:45 am & 7 pm (central)
Sat. at 7 pm (central)
Sun. at 11 am (central)

Feel free to call our cell at (318) 655-2297 or email james@world-hops.com for more information.

Keep up the good work and God bless you.

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