Update, on 04/01/2010 A third party has contacted me claiming that PD&C are not Modalists per a correspondence from PD&C. The email does not give a clear expression of their doctrine and I would like to hear from them directly with clear expressions of what they believe. A response is forthcoming.
This probably hasn’t been a hot topic lately, but there is some new (to me at least) and concrete information on Phillips, Craig and Dean’s position on their position on the Trinity. If you search and read the various apologetic websites you’ll find how tough it was for many to get straight answers to their position on the doctrine of the Trinity. There website, for example, doesn’t have a statement of faith.
Taking a look at their church websites doesn’t make finding their beliefs too much easier. On Dan Dean’s The Heartland Church I can find no statement of faith. As of 04/01/2010 there is now a statement of faith. At Shawn Craig’s church South County Christian Center under “about us” you actually can read their statement of faith. It says this about God:
We believe in one God revealed as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. (Matthew 28:19; John 1:14; Acts 5:3-4; 2 Corinthians 13:14; Colossians 1:15-20; Hebrews 1:1-3; Revelation 1:4-6) [emphasis mine]
Lastly, at Randy Phillips’ church Promise Land West under “About Us” then “Belief Statement” under the heading “The Godhead” reads:
(I John 5:7; Matthew 28:19; 1 Tim 3:16) We believe in one God who is eternal in His existence, Triune in His manifestation, being both Father, Son and Holy Ghost AND that He is Sovereign and Absolute in His authority. We believe in the Father who is God Himself, Creator of the universe. {Gen 1:1; John 1:1} We believe that Jesus is the Son of God. (Col 2:9) [emphasis mine, underline in original]
The red flags are the words “revealed as” and “manifestation” that have caused folks to question whether or not these guys are non-Trinitarian. But without coming right out and denying it it’s possible though not accurate to use a play on words and skirt the issue. At least skirting the issue in so far as to satisfy someone who has not really looked into modalism or much theology. None of the above information is really new though.
Promise Land church which is pastored by Randy Phillips’ father (I believe) which birthed Phillips’ current church Promise Land West has finally given a definitive position. You can read their “What We Believe” page and get similar texts like the ones I mentioned above.
So here’s the kicker. If you go to “Resources” then to the Enquirer’s Handbook link at the Promise Land church site you’ll find that handbook which is a 100+ page pdf file very helpful. Finally, a direct answer. Now, we can’t necessarily apply these beliefs to the other two members since they are not part of that church, but it’s very telling.
Let’s look at some quotes from the handbook.
Since the death of John and the other eleven original apostles, many concepts and teachings have arisen that do not necessarily coincide with the “one God” teaching of the early church. In the year A.D. 180, Tertullian began using the term “trinity” from which was born the Catholic doctrine of three Gods, co-equal, co-existent and co-eternal. The Roman Emperor Constantine in the year A.D. 325 incorporated the “doctrine of the trinity” into the Catholic Church where it has remained ever since, and most Protestant churches have accepted this doctrine without thorough examination. The “trinity”, however, generates confusion and is not in total harmony with the Scriptures. To say that there are three separate persons who somehow comprise “one God” is like trying to connect opposing sides of two magnets. When you add 1+1+1, it must equal three; and there cannot, under any circumstances, be more than one God.
One of the primary sources of confusion in this matter is related to the word “persons.” The doctrine of the trinity states that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three “persons” who make up one God. In actuality, the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three manifestations of one God. This word manifestation means “to appear”, and it is quite scriptural. The Bible tells us that, “God was manifest in the flesh . . .” (I Timothy 3:16). In other words, God appeared in the flesh (as a son). [emphasis mine] Pg. 60
It also looks like there is a problem of separating Christ’s natures. This must go along with the modalism so certain Scriptures can be explained.
On the other hand, it was His human nature which required Him to eat, to sleep and to pray. As a human being (flesh), Jesus Christ was basically weak. Jesus made this clear when He spoke to Peter saying: “. . . The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh [human nature] is weak” (Mark 14:38).
The flesh, as a result of its sinful tendencies, is constantly warring with and resisting the Spirit. But despite these facts, Jesus came “. . . in the likeness of sinful flesh . . .” (Romans 8:3). He did not create a super body, so to speak, that would protect Him from sin and weakness; He was human flesh just as you and I are.
It was for this reason that Jesus had to pray. If this is confusing, remember that it was the flesh (human nature) praying to the omnipresent Spirit. In one incident, Jesus had to lay His hands upon a man the second time in order for the man to be healed (Mark 8:23-25). This was due to the weakness of the flesh; otherwise, one time would have been sufficient. Without prayer and fasting, His flesh, is human nature, would never have remained sinless and pure or have been strong enough to die on Calvary (Hebrews 5:7). His need for prayer was made evident in the garden of Gethsemane (Mark 14:32-42; Luke 22:44-46).
The dual nature of Jesus is puzzling to some because they view the two natures as two persons. As a man, Jesus was the Son of God; He was flesh. But as God Almighty, Jesus was Spirit robed in flesh and existing everywhere else at once. There are two natures and not two persons. For example, you possess a human nature (your body) and a spiritual nature (your spirit). Whether your flesh and spirit remain intact or are separated, you are still only one person. The same is true of God. Pg. 63
I just pulled a few quotes out, but there are more in the book. I’m actually glad that the issues are finally spelled out so clearly. I wonder if the rest of the band agrees?
Mark
tagged as heresy, modalism, Phillips Craig and Dean in Church Issues,theology
About the author
Mark is a Christian, husband and father. He is a businessman by day working to support his family while attending seminary in the off hours as he prepares for vocational ministry.
{ 26 comments… read them below or add one }
Here’s the question thats always bugged me. What if–and this applies to any group–they have a few solid songs you like?
Josh,
In a way I struggle with that too. If the song is an original then I don’t know what to think. Maybe warn people who may sing it? The song itself can’t really be solid if it’s from a heretical viewpoint.
One thing I would not do, however, is buy any of their music.
Mark
Well I don’t anymore.
My rule of thumb is I listen to anything I like. I generally cross songs with bad theology off the play list.
Of course, I still don’t know what to think about non-Christian music from ‘back in the day’.
I am well aquainted with these three guys, Phillips, Craig & Dean. I know them to be devout christians, faithful to the LORD, to their family and true to their church.
I am dismayed that there are a few who seem to get some kind of strange satisfaction in attacking them regarding their Biblical description of GOD. Unfortunately, there are those who seem to feel they have a corner on explaining GOD. I choose to believe what the apostle Paul wrote; “We see through a glass darkly.” I don’t believe anyone of us can fully understand or explain the Godhead.
We as christians are “to love the brethren.”
Let love abound!
Tim,
I do understand your concern. Did you read the booklet I linked to above or at least the parts I quoted? You will see that it is the Modalists who are saying the Trinitarians have a doctrine of three gods. And more is said in their booklet.
So, have you said the same to them as you’ve had to us in your above comment? They’ve made no less a positive assertion that attacks Trinitarians. If not, they why come here charging me with having a “corner on explaining God” when they do the same thing?
Do you deny what I said about the position of their doctrine?
I do love my brethren as well as my those that aren’t my brethren. And to those who aren’t I am to proclaim the true God and His Gospel to them.
Mark
There are some 500 verses in the Bible that support the concept of the Trinity…See notes in the Finis Dake Bible for a list. This is really about not wanting persecution, so they deny the power of the Holy Spirit. The real Jesus of the Bible is only found in relationship to the Godhead. Allah had no son…The Bibical Father, Son and Holy Spirit relationship exposes that Allah is not the God of the Bible. 1 John states that you cannot have the Father without the Son…this exposes that Judism cannot have Father God as they could before Jesus. John chapter 4 relates that the Father seeks worshippers to worship in The Spirit and in Truth (Jesus). I am saddened that PC&D are so lost in that they are serving another Jesus that does not have a Father or a Spirit to be sent to comfort us. Anti-Christ comes in his own name, and has no connection with the Father or Spirit…this is what many Christians worship as Jesus when they stop reading their word, join with the Great Whore rather than the Precious Holy Spirit, and do ANYTHING rather than be persecuted!
Julie,
I wish more folks knew about and would stand boldly in opposition to PC&D.
Thanks,
Mark
I’m with Josh. I learned of their non-orthodox (little “o”, of course) and it really breaks my heart. Their music really meant a lot to me. “This is How it Feels to be Free” and “I Need You” resonated powerfully with me.
But now I feel a check in the Spirit that I shouldn’t be listening to their music, and it’s been really tough.
What bothers me most is the effort they’ve gone to in order to keep their position quiet. If they really believed this (modallism and all that’s attendant with it) then by their standards, WE’RE not the believers. Shouldn’t they be witnessing to US, instead of hiding what they believe? Apparently it’s more important to sell lots of records than be honest and face whatever arises.
Janet,
I agree with you that they should not consider us as fellow Christians. The handbook I linked to above says the Trinity is a belief in three gods. It also looks like they believe that water baptism is a must to be saved.
So, have these modalists the same problem with money ahead of their own beliefs?
Interesting.
Mark
That stinkin’ Constanteen. If he wasn’t the pawn of the Pope, what a wonderful world.
The earliest creeds affirm the traditional Christian understanding of the Trinity. For example, both the Roman Symbol and the Apostles' Creed were written way long before Constantine. The subsequent church Councils only affirmed what was already Christian belief.
The earliest creeds affirm the traditional Christian understanding of the Trinity. For example, both the Roman Symbol and the Apostles' Creed were written way long before Constantine. The subsequent church Councils only affirmed what was already Christian belief.
Where do you get your information on them believing that water baptism is a must to be saved? I checked each chruch website and they each state water baptism as a commandment, not a step to salvation. Before making comments like you have been, check your facts and don't take everything out of context. Your really trying to stretch it. They state that God was manifested in three persons, The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit which is Biblical.
Bobby, please re-read what I said about baptism and salvation. I said it – It also looks like they believe that water baptism is a must to be saved. If you read the position on baptism in the book I referenced you will see why I said that. See the part of the book on baptism here: http://www.promiselandchurch.net/index.php?opti…
Among the various statements on baptism that seem to indicate water baptism is necessary to salvation is this one.
Did anyone deny that the term “manifestation” is biblical? It's ironic that you ask me to check my facts. Did you actually read the source I quoted and its explicit denial of the Trinity?
1x1x1=1
Christian music does have it’s unorthodox artists. One example is 8 time dove award winner, member of the Southern Gospel Music Hall Of Fame, Joel Hemphill of the Hemphill’s. Joel attacks the deity of our Lord Jesus, and the Holy Trinity in print and on tape. I have seen his materials attacking these cardinal teachings of the faith on 4 anti-deity of Christ sites. How one can attend conferences that attack our Lord’s deity, write a book using many of the same scriptures the JW’S use, make statements to Christian authors “We Are Going To Bring Down The Doctrine Of The Trinity”and perform concerts in Christian churches is a real shame. There are still some fine info on Joel Hemphill’s unorthodoxy on the web by evangelical ministries.
This is an interesting topic. this prompted me to take a look at my church and see what they believe. Wow what a shock here is what it said;
ABOUT THE ONE TRUE GOD
God is the Creator and Ruler of the universe. He has eternally existed in three personalities: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These three are co-equal and are one God.
Genesis 1:1,26,27, 3:22; Psalm 90:2; Matthew 28:19; 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Corinthians 13:14
Three personalities? is this a reg flag? should I be asking questions?
Eugene,
By personalities they could just mean persons. It is probably nothing to worry about, but maybe a look at the entire statement of faith would help. Is you church part of a particular denomination?
yeah the church is loosely connected with the assemblies of god I have a couple other issues that concern me on there statement of faith like;
About Salvation: salvation is defined as accepting Jesus as your lord and savior there is no mention of repentance for putting once trust faith in Jesus.
shouldn’t jesus be the 1 doing the accepting? no where in the bible does it instruct us to accept jesus
the gospel message should include, Gods characteristics and attributes righteous and holy.
mankind is wicked corrupt selfish wretched sinners.
God being righteous must punish sinners, yes we deserve hell
God demonstrating is love sent his son should be the perfect ransom for our sins.
accessing this grace is done when we repent of our sins and put our faith in jesus christ
I too loved the music of PC&D long before I ever came across this controversy over their views, BUT, having done so, I feel I cannot in all conscience continue to do so. My reasoning is that if I do believe that they are indeed modalistic in their theology, then I may as well listen to Mormon music or some other faith’s renderings to their Jesus, as if you’re not worshiping Jesus for Who he actually is, but rather a false “representation” of Him as the modalists believe in, then you’re not truly worshiping the One you believe in.
It reminds me of a similar argument surrounding yoga – again, I used to practice it in my youth, even as a Christian, before I learned more about its Hinduistic roots and I used to equally have the view that it was indeed only exercise, BUT again, the same holds- if the “author’s” intention is that the exercise is done in worship to their deities then for me to practice the exercise means I’m also worshiping the deity because the 2 are interconnected.
Ultimately it finally comes down to Paul’s admonitition in 1 Corinthians 8, that if you have a conscience about a practice, then for you it is sinful – end of!!
For me, I just keep praying they would accept the reality of the Trinity as taught in scripture & denounce any question of “manifestations” etc, as they truly do have a wonderful musical gift I’d truly love to be able to once again enjoy.
Eugene,
Please keep in mind that no where in the Bible does it say repent of your sins, as that would be works Eph 2:8-9. Repentance is biblical, however, many pervert the meaning. Regeneration comes before justification!
Josh
Think you need to perhaps clarify your statement, as you’re not exactly right to say “nowhere in the Bible does it say repent of your sins”.
Here’s the dictionary meaning:
verb (used with object e.g. sin)
1. to remember or regard with self-reproach or contrition: to repent one’s injustice to another.
2. to feel sorry for; regret: to repent an imprudent act.
Repentance (and its a given that it’s from sin) is found in abundance throughout scripture from Genesis onwards. But primary texts would be Ezekiel 18:30, Luke 17:3-4, Acts 3:19, Acts 8:22, Rev 2:21-22. I found at least another couple of dozen mentions of repentance but just as a standalone term where these connect directly to sin.
Jesus exhorted people specifically to repent but certainly it’s God who draws the soul to desire & be willing to do so, as man never will seek to accept his sinfulness on his own.
I’m curious how you have come to consider repentance as a work? Did you not repent before accepting Jesus as your Saviour? If not, why did you feel you needed him to save you from anything, since normally repentance follows a deep knowledge of our sinful nature before God and our deep need for forgiveness – and that’s all repentance is – saying we know we’re sinners & need forgiveness with Jesus being the only means provided for us to be able to obtain it from God.
Josh, what bible are you reading? I use the New American Standard and if you search the word Repentance or Repent it shows up 53 times in the New Testament. There are multiple examples of being instructed to repent.
We read; “From that time Jesus began to preach and say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”” Matthew 4:17, Mark 1:15
This passage gives us a glimpse into how Jesus preached “from that time” meaning ‘from that time’ in His earthly ministry he proclaimed “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” This is clearly his approach to proclaiming the message of salvation.
This is also how we see Peter and Paul preaching in the New Testament.
read the book of Acts look at Acts 3:19, Acts 5:31, Acts 8:22, Acts 11:18, Acts 13:24
Read to book of Romans and notice how Romans 2:4 fits into this picture. Read how Paul takes the Gospel message to the Greeks 2 Corinthians 7:9
I now rejoice, not that you were made sorrowful, but that you were made sorrowful to the point of repentance; for you were made sorrowful according to the will of God, so that you might not suffer loss in anything through us.
also see 2 Corinthians 7:10, 2 Corinthians 12:21 and Paul’s instructions to Timothy (2 Timothy 2:25)
Also The apostle John recorded in Revelation a unique message to the 7 churches with a strong rebuke and instructions from Jesus to the 7 churches in Revelation chapters 1-3.
Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place—unless you repent.Revelation 2:5
Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth. Revelation 2:16
I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality. Revelation 2:21
Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds. Revelation 2:22
So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you. Revelation 3:3
Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.
Revelation 3:19
here is another prospective to thinks about
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJ6dT0zryII
Romayne,
You are correct. I do need to clarify what I stated. Firstly, I agree that repentance is biblical, however, the meaning of repentance is where many go wrong.
How do I consider repentance from sin works? One verse that comes to mind is Jonah 3:10 “And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.” Turning from their evil ways was works. Another gem from that same verse says God repented. If that means repent from sin, is God a sinner? Nay, God forbid!
You said “since normally repentance follows a deep knowledge of our sinful nature before God and our deep need for forgiveness – and that’s all repentance is – saying we know we’re sinners & need forgiveness with Jesus being the only means provided for us to be able to obtain it from God.” To that I say AMEN! A lot of the time, that is true. God shows us what kind of sinners we are and guilt causes us to repent (turn from us to Him). However, keep in mind that repentance does not always include guilt. Sometimes fear causes repentance. Take Saul’s conversion, it was fear based. Take the Philippian jailer in Acts. Does it say he expressed remorse over his sin? No, it says he came to them trembling and asked what was required to be saved, to which they answered, believe on the Lord Jesus and thou shalt be saved. So yes, repentance is biblical and mentioned a plethora of times, however, the meaning is where most turn it from faith (belief) to works (turning from sin). If it means to turn from sin, which ones? The danger in this is that it leads down the road of can we lose salvation?
Let me try this analogy
If you and I were both business partners and we were in New York and we had a very important meeting to attend in Atlanta Georgia. If I said to you Hey I know the way lets drive there and we can plan out our strategies and goals for this meeting you agreed to go along. however along the way you start geting concerned as the trees are getting thicker and weather is getting colder. then you see a sign that says Canada 35 miles. What would be your reaction? you would be mad that I have taken you the wrong way I have wasted your time. You would want me to
1. Agree with you that I am going the wrong way!
2. You would want me to apologize to you (repent)
3. stop going the wrong direction
4. turn the car around and
5. not stop until we get to Atlanta.
Repentance is agreeing with God that we have broken his commands It’s turning and turning from our sins and trusting in Jesus
its Not by works
Its recognizing that we are going the wrong direction and
Eugene,
I understand the concept, but thanks for your explanation anyhow. Repentance is indeed turning from us (who are sinners) to God, but it is not turning from sin itself. If so, which sins? All of them? Who can do such a thing? For all have sinned and come short. Good works are fruit that stems from salvation, not a prerequisite. If we have to turn from sin to be saved, if we sin again, do we need to be saved all over again? The statement I made above could be better clarified by stating that the phrase repent of your sins is never found in scripture. Do you disagree that there is clear evidence of men coming to Christ in the Bible without showing remorse? I gave two examples above.
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