Below is my response to Randy’s original comment to my post. I’m going to most post my reply rather than copy and paste the whole exchange. You can read it at comment #9.
My initial post was me grabbing comments that stood out for one reason or another and then responding to them. This post is not to discredit Passion Church, but to promote healthy discussion in these areas of the local church.
Point 1: Shooting Bumper Stickers
“I gave it a shot” doesn’t sound like a “Try Jesus” bumper sticker to Randy, fine. That’s how it initially struck me. I didn’t mean to be unfair, but it does come across as “Try Church” if they are only starting with having worship services part-time.
This ties into Randy’s mention of discerning what is in Giglio’s “heart”. It might be what’s in his heart, but that’s a very subjective position from which to argue. There are many things in our hearts, both good and bad. There is an objective side to being called into ministry. I would look at the situation of a “failed” church plant more along the lines of – God, you must not have wanted this for my life – rather than “I gave it a shot.” Just as you see Paul in Scripture tell us that the Holy Spirit did not want him to go to certain areas.
The problem with the personal vs. community accountability is that starting a church does not start and end with simple personal accountability. I do agree, however, that we could see a more concrete working out of God’s will over time.
Point 2: Building The Church
If they let their friends join them in building the Passion church then they are not only building on someone else’s foundation, they are taking away from it. Now, maybe the pastors’ of their friends are onboard with their flock helping build Passion with which I’d be fine. You’d also have to define what “another’s foundation” is as far as how wide the reach, etc. That’s another discussion which is probably not easily settled. Randy, another area we seem to disagree is that if Passion is truly the work of their (Giglio, etc.) own hands then it’s bound to fail. I don’t mean to dichotomize here, but we must see this as a work of God’s hands. My guess is Randy probably doesn’t disagree. I do want to point this out though.
Point 3: Following Other Models
A point that is often used to support a position is that method X is okay because this is how so-and-so did it and they are successful. There might be some wisdom in learning from others in this way, but when it is concerning the church we must first look to biblical wisdom and instruction.
I am familiar with North Point Community Church planting a few churches. Randy’s position is answer in his own reply though because these churches grew out of North Point. The great disservice is not me referring to the efforts of the Passion’s founders as “Try Church”. The disservice is to God for trying to establish a part-time church which might pull members of other congregations away from the body they serve and the pastors who watch over them.
Point 4: Labels
Giglio wants to use the biblical word “church” yet doesn’t want to use contemporary church adjectives. OK, that’s fine. I do understand and scratch my original reply. Maybe the word “passion” in the name is enough to say it all.
Point 5: Life Changing
I don’t think Randy’s dictionary definition of “transact” is helpful at all. It doesn’t define the phrase I asked about. I would rather have Giglio’s answer because the phrase “life-changing transaction with their Creator” can have so many meanings. If he means the Gospel clearly spelled out and lived out biblically, fine. If not, then what? Randy quotes Isaiah 1:18 and I say there are more in the surrounding verses that some just may not like too much to experience.
Point 6: Exaltation
Another dictionary definition. This time the word is exalt. I asked what it means to “know” this is happening. Is it a feeling? Mood? Music? Or is it that Jesus and His Gospel is the center and God is honored as biblically as possible?
Point 7: Youthful Vibes
My question was just why if God doesn’t give the church a youthful vibe, but an older one. My point is though why does he care? He already dismissed wanting to label the church with contemporary church adjectives.
I do understand his desire to want certain things to be certain ways. We all do this, but we just don’t know what kind of vibe God might give. The idea of the older members reaching out to the younger, if that’s what he means, is a great idea since people do tend to build cliques by age and what not.
Point 8: Rest & Move
OK, I may have pulled the trigger a little quickly on this one. The statement just reminds me of a kind of mysticism. I thought of the phrase “presence of God rests and moves” in light of God actually being present. There doesn’t have to be a difference, but there could be so it all comes back to what Giglio actually means.
Point 9: Crazy Steps
To a Christian who is called to pastoral ministry those steps don’t necessarily look crazy at all. Just read the Bible and see what God has done in His people. I agree that we are and will continue to be amazed at what God does in our lives. Especially, how He does things.
Point 10: Words & Meaning
I’m glad Randy has been helped by Giglio. I’m certainly not questioning that one cannot be helped in such a manner. Some of the phrases used just seem ambiguous. I think as Christians, we need to be careful in the way we describe the experiences we have in the church. Some people coming looking for certain experiences that they might walk away feeling certain ways. When these personal, subjective expectations aren’t met they become disappointed. This disappointment is unhealthy and might be towards God or their local church. As a whole we can do better in this area.
Final Thoughts
I hope the Lord blesses the Passion Church if that is His will. I hope that those in leadership there will take seriously those who the Lord has given to other pastors. I hope this will be done and a very high respect will be given for other local churches and they will work with those pastors. Local church members should be discouraged from hoping from church to church like they are trying out the next best fad.
I wish churches that send flyers out to neighborhoods would include a disclaimer. Something like: If you are currently involved with and are a member of another local church please disregard this flyer. The Lord has given your soul to your current pastor to watch over and give account.
For what it’s worth…
Mark
{ 4 comments… read them below or add one }
Point 1: Shooting Bumper Stickers
Mark, when any of us say “that’s how it initially struck me”, then we are saying something to the world about what may be unique and critical to our personal disposition that causes us to process information and respond to it through cognitive lenses tinted (and sometimes tainted ) by our own lifetime of personal experiences. Therefore, if that’s how Louie’s statement initially struck you, then it is because that’s how you may be experientially conditioned to hear and to process information of this sort. And I don’t say that to be mean. My information processing and response is subject to the same presuppositions. I took the time to get acquainted with you by reading through various blog posts and by reading your testimony. Your exposure from childhood to the powerful cultish indoctrinations of the pseudo-Mormon RLDS Church, both in your home (with both parents being ordained ministers and your mother’s family generationally rooted in the RLDS) and in your community experience of church itself is a powerful story (if I read it correctly)
You said: “I was baptized in the RLDS church at 8 years old. I was raised to believe that in order to go to heaven I had to be good, just about perfect it seemed, as well as be part of the one true church which was the RLDS church.
The words “good” and “just about perfect” seem to characterize your viewpoint of how church “ought” to be…and with regard to this particular new church (Passion City Church) your interpretation of Louie’s responses are not at all indicative of who he really is as a speaker and as a minister. And the initial responses from others engendered by your particular tone of questioning were laden with cynicism and lack of encouragement. Most of the good things said about Louie ended with a tone of doubt and reserve from those commenting rather than a strong hope that the Kingdom we have been so graciously translated into out of darkness might increase substantially to the satisfaction of our God. Instead, we say some good things about one of our own brothers (an older brother who’s labored more diligently than most) but spend more words talking him down, leaving the doubt and cynicism as a bitter aftertaste to what could have been good.
Well….as your brother in Christ (and when I say that, I speak from awareness of the bond of brotherhood that exists between you and me through Christ)…I want to say that your posts tend to reflect a perspective tempered more by the legalistic flavor of your religious heritage rather than the gracious flavor of your newfound heritage in Christ. “That’s how it initially strikes me”.
Now, when I say “that’s how it initially strikes me”, I am saying something to the world about what may be unique and critical to my personal disposition that causes me to process information and respond to it through cognitive lenses tinted (and sometimes tainted ) by my own lifetime of personal experiences. Therefore, if that’s how your statement initially strikes me, then it is because that’s how I may be experientially conditioned to hear and to process information of this sort.
Perhaps…our stories are somewhat similar…
It is a true statement when you say “It might be what’s in his heart, but that’s a very subjective position from which to argue”. That’s why I’m not arguing “what’s in his heart” – either good or bad from my vantage point of outside observation. The discernment I mention relates to one’s individual ability to “discern…communication from God” (specifically Louie’s and generally all Christians). And the process I speak of is one of wrestling, pondering and responding to the voice of God – by faith
The terms subjective and objective SEEM to me too limiting in their capacities to adequately portray what it means to be “called into ministry”. I do not deny there is an objective side, nor do I deny there is a subjective side. In fact, I am inclined to believe that with God as the consummate factor in the details of ministry “calling” that such calling is both 100% subjective and 100% objective SIMULTANEOUSLY from the perspective of the human who is called….because the “minister” brings first an offering to his relationship with God of ALL that he was, is, and will be….and ALL of this (all of him) is offered in exchange for “ALL that God is for us in Jesus Christ” (to borrow from John Piper)….to the extent that ALL of the components of subjective disposition and ALL of the components of objective disposition are “swallowed up” in Christ…to the extent that we know and we preach “Christ crucified” – a stumblingblock to some, foolishness to others….but to us the incomparable power and wisdom of God.
Also, the use of “I gave it a shot” makes no reference to a “failed church plant”, either specifically or by interpretation of statement context. But, I would agree with you on saying that a failed church plant might be indicative of God not wanting this for someone’s life. However, that is JUST ONE thing it MIGHT be indicative of.
You see, I believe that everything that occurs within the universe has a definite and temporal lifespan. EVERYTHING subject to the constraints of time and to the laws of thermodynamics and to the innumerable conditions imposed by all physical laws upon all of creation for all of time….EVERYTHING has a beginning and an end. Every cell that comprises every organ that comprises every individual who comprises every organization, which comprises every nation, which together comprise the community of nations…..will begin and will end…under the constraints of time (not in eternity).
I tell everyone whom I hire at our businesses that we have but a short time together to accomplish something….because unless you can think of a way to avoid one of these four things, one of them will happen eventually….You will quit, you will get fired/laid off, you will retire, or you will die. I can’t think of any other options for that person. One of the four options applies to me as well.
I can’t think of any other options for those involved in ministry organizations either. So, I look at failure in a different context. If an organization is created with the realization that it will one day come to an end, then how do I define failure? Can there be successes during the organizational life cycle that would make me believe that the organization was more of a success than a failure? Does God see success/failure differently than how we might see them? Do our vision and understanding smack of conformity to God’s or do we justify our vision and understanding by attempting to make what we think is God’s conform to ours?
These are humbling questions for any individual. Now I ask….was Israel a failed organizational entity planted by God through Abraham….and if so, should Abraham have done something else?
You said: The problem with the personal vs. community accountability is that starting a church does not start and end with simple personal accountability. I do agree, however, that we could see a more concrete working out of God’s will over time.
I agree!! With both points! I’m only saying here that Louie’s response to the interview question was one that expounded on a mental conversation between him and Jesus…and therefore expressed matters of personal accountability. I would add to your statement that starting a church does not start and end with simple personal accountability….in fact, accountability (whether personal or community) is only one factor accounted for in the ingredients of church starting (or any organizational starting for that matter). Though accountability may be a foundational thread that will remain in place for the life of the organization, it is one of many threads stitched together to provide the fabric of the organizational entity.
And I believe that I am absolutely correct in saying that LOVE is the pure strength that binds it all together….in any organization.
Point 2: Building The Church
If they “let” their friends join them in building the Passion church then they are not necessarily building on someone else’s foundation and they are not necessarily taking from it. Louie specifically stated in his interview that he has never “recruited one person”. Does this mean that he has always recruited “two or more” every time he has recruited, or does it mean that he has never recruited “anyone” period. “Letter of the law” interpretation would render both interpretations possible. The “spirit of the law” interpretation would say that this man, out of love and respect for others and the organizations they are involved with has not attempted to take anyone, not even one person from them.
Romans 15:20 – Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man’s foundation:
Foundation: (from Strong’s) Greek – themelios –
1) laid down as a foundation, the foundation (of a building, wall, city)
2) metaph. the foundations, beginnings, first principals
a) of institution or system of truth
So, from the above context, we see that foundation can be defined relative to the geography of particular entities (buildings, cities, walls) and also relative to the beginnings or first principals of an institution (the church) or system of truth (the gospel). Well, if we use the geography argument, there are surely numerous churches in the Atlanta area, therefore no more churches should be allowed. There are enough to do the job! Problem is…the job is not getting done. So, by establishing another geographic entity in the Atlanta area, are we building where Christ has already been named? Yes we are. But, are there human hearts neglected being reached by the existing church infrastructure….hearts where Christ has not yet been named? Yes….hundreds of thousands. But with regard to the geography argument, Louie has already been ministering to the locals and to the world in an Atlanta-based ministry longer than many of the new churches have been around and longer than you have been a Christian.
With regard to the “first principals” argument, Louie’s message is different in tone and scope than nearly all others. There are few that speak of the greatness of God in the way that he does. His first principal is “the greatness of God” and all else flows from that. There are many that now emulate his choice of words and some of his catch-phrases are now being said around the world. In this respect, he also is not building on any other man’s foundation.
So, with regards to geography, there remains a great need for an increase in the church in Atlanta through the powerful love of God. With regards to first principals, Louie may not be historically unique in proclaiming the greatness of God with such intense passion, but for modern times and in this modern place, he is in a class shared by only a handful of others. So, I would say that neither geographically nor principally is he building upon another man’s foundation. He is building upon the foundation of God’s greatness…. with love and passion being manifest evidences of that greatness…a continuation of what he has done for many years….only now apparently attempting to plant the Passion DNA into the life of a local body of believers. Ok…cool.
Point 3: Following Other Models
As people grow in their relationships with Christ, one of the greatest means of maturity becomes imitation of others who are mature. So, to say “that method X is okay because this is how so and so did it and they were successful” is actually to adopt the very precepts of biblical wisdom and instruction….both individually and organizationally. Paul among the churches he planted told them to follow and imitate him as he did Christ. (1 Cor. 4:16, 1 Cor. 11:1 and many other places). And when it comes to the church, Paul’s major concern was the church and effective increase according to the plan and power of God.
I agree that it would be a disservice to God for someone to try to “establish a part-time church which might pull members of other congregations away from the body they serve and the pastors who watch over them.”
Throughout the global history of the church, there have been individuals and groups that have met at different intervals of time. Beginning with monastic groups that live together and do life together continuously over time…to groups which might meet once or twice on Sundays and then again or not again on Wednesdays….to groups which meet only on Saturdays….to groups which meet on a more irregular basis due to political or social restraints imposed upon them due to persecution. So, this new church plant may “appear” to be part-time to someone who sees things through eyes accustomed to Christian practice in western civilization. However, if Louie and the organizational team are involved daily with the organizational (church) effort, then it a continuous church, with continuous operations, with continuous impact…..with the congregational gathering being only one component to the workings of the organization (although an important one)….and other ministry efforts to follow suit….when the time is right.
Point 4: Labels
Giglio wants to use the biblical word “church” yet doesn’t want to use contemporary church adjectives. OK, that’s fine. I do understand and scratch my original reply. Maybe the word “passion” in the name is enough to say it all.
I think the refrain from using contemporary church adjectives is more of a statement of intent to refrain from using contemporary church adjectives like “seeker church” used by the interviewer. I’m not sure why the Church is so taken to defining itself through sophisticated sounding adjectives rather than by the simple yet infinitely powerful love that exists between a person and his/her Creator. Contemporary adjectives like “seeker”, “post-modern”, “emergent” and many others just seem to add to the confusion confounding those who could be our brothers and sisters in Christ. Why does so much of the modern Church hide itself behind the intellectual aura and pretense of such nomenclature, and thereby cloud the communication of the gospel message? Is it because there is indeed a form of godliness but no power? I can’t answer for “them”…only for myself.
Point 5: Life Changing
Mark, you said you would like to know “what is a life changing transaction”. So, I gave you the definition of one…just one. The dictionary definition of transaction is appropriate for our understanding because it defines the integral components to transaction occurrences. Parties are involved…negotiations are entertained, etc. to achieve end results. Relationships are by nature and by definition “transactional”. Individual and organizational efforts and their inter and intra-relationships all combine to produce results. The same is true of our individual and corporate relationship with Christ. Our individual encounters and corporate encounters with Christ are transactions which produce results…and these results are what change our lives. Hence, the meaning to me of life-changing transactions. Regarding the other “bad” transactions in Isaiah, I couldn’t agree more. However, there are good and bad life-changing transactions that happen at church. I think Ananias and Saphira had a piece of the “bad” life changing transactions with God in the book of Acts. My assumption is that Louie doesn’t want this type of life-changing transaction to occur (I know I don’t wish that on anyone). Nevertheless, there is the good…and there is the bad. I wish for the best!
Point 6: Exaltation
Here we become more philosophical in our approach rather than practical. If the simple meaning of the word does not suffice, then we must ask ourselves to define “Know”. Then we open to ourselves a world of complex theory concerning the psychology of knowledge entailing theories of neural processes and inhibitory and excitatory post-synaptic potentials and the sensory information and knowledge associated with cellular function….and so on…and so on…Can two people experience the same experience and walk away “knowing” the same thing? Obviously not. There will differences in knowledge of the event based on the differing degrees of “experiential knowledge” each brings to the event of the experience being shared. So, how do we “know” that God is being exalted? That answer will be different for every individual…..even though they share the same worship service, the same message from the pulpit, and many of the other ministries which reach out to them. Therefore, it is difficult for any individual to answer.
Point 7: Youthful Vibes
“Why does he care?” Perhaps Louie cares because he cares about the church. His ministry has been one of mobilizing younger generations of people, putting within their hearts a passion for God….just for Who He is. He has been successful….and thousands upon thousands of sons and daughters redeemed by Christ have come to know God more intimately and to love Him more passionately than they might have otherwise. Also, I think the “older” derive a particular energy from the “younger” in many organizational settings. So, even though he says he hopes the church has a “youthful vibe”. I interpret that to mean energy (strong, passionate energy).
Ah…to have the zeal of the youth coupled with the wisdom of the older. Now, that could really be conducive to great organizational effectiveness!
Point 8: Rest & Move
OK, I may have pulled the trigger a little quickly on this one. The statement just reminds me of a kind of mysticism. I thought of the phrase “presence of God rests and moves” in light of God actually being present. There doesn’t have to be a difference, but there could be so it all comes back to what Giglio actually means.
My response: You may be initially compelled to see the “mysticism” in Louie’s response because, as you said, your youth was spent involved in those types of things in the martial arts arena. That’s a hard thing to break from, but it is also something that can give you incredible discernment (over time).
Point 9: Crazy Steps
Nope. To “You” as a Christian who is called to pastoral ministry those steps don’t necessarily look crazy at all. Again, you need to define for your readers what “you” mean by crazy. I did not take Louie’s comment here to mean “crazy” in the sense of deviating from intellectual fortitude and soundness. He is using a term that is very common and means exactly the opposite of what you and I are accustomed to it meaning. So, in one sense it’s not crazy…but in another sense it’s just crazy. Makes sense actually.
Point 10: Words & Meaning
Again, I think a lot of the ambiguity in phrase interpretation stems from the cognitive filters established by your unique life experiences – very powerful religious life experiences. And I think you’re right that we need to be careful how we describe any experiences we have in church….because we (rather the Lord through us) must be able to reach through these cognitive filtration devices unique and peculiar to every individual with the Light of the gospel in order to effect a change in their disposition with their Creator….to ensure they are born again, by grace, through faith. And then we must be able to reach through the cognitive filtration devices unique and peculiar to every son and daughter of God on a constant basis to effect a continuous change in their relationship with their Creator…growth, maturity, conformity to the image of Christ by allowing Christ to be formed in us.
And all this and more through FAITH, which works by LOVE. (Galatians 5:6)
Now, sure some people come to church looking for certain experiences, and they bring to the church encounter their own unique sets of personal expectations, which if not met may disappointment them. Their disappointment is probably unhealthy and might very well be towards God or the local church they are having this disappointing experience in. Well, here’s where things could get murky for some thinkers: Do we organize and orchestrate the activities of the local church organization from the perspective of trying to alleviate people’s potential disappointments….or do we organize and orchestrate the activities of the local church organization from the perspective that we offer unconditionally and without prejudice to ALL (including ourselves) the opportunity to worship Jesus Christ, the Creator God and to mature relationally with Him?
And not only do we offer it to all others….but are we worshipping Him ourselves? Could it be that every individual’s worship of God is of paramount importance to God. Are we putting on a church function to get people to join us in worship and increase the number of our church participants….or are we worshipping our God and allowing a church function to emerge from our activity of true worship…and is this light that emerges like a light set upon a hill (not under a bushel) for others to see and to glorify our Father in heaven…a light of worship that bids any and all to come participate with us if they want to….but if they don’t are we still engaging our God and being engaged by Him relationally through worship because that’s just what we do….wherever we go….and all of this because it’s important to HIM…and because it’s important to HIM it’s important to us, whether we realize it or not?
Final Thoughts
Mark, Your opinion is worth a lot….a whole lot. And your zeal for the Lord is more than that of most people I have met over the years. To some extent, your burden is my burden….if only because it is your burden. If only during this very short lifetime we have here on earth we might all see that ALL churches EVERYWHERE if infused with an awareness of the presence and the greatness of God have built into them the capacity for overflowing greatness. Pastors must know this experientially….or go get some experience! The people must know this experientially….or go somewhere else to get some experience! We must bring this experience into the Church and the Church must be equipped to communicate that experience intra-relationally (between members – individuals and families…and between churches) and inter-relationally (to the world being drawn by God to see His greatness).
(Philippians 2: 1-4) If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies, Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
If individuals could just put the above into practice, it would revolutionize all relationships the individual builds and engages in (friends, family, church, business, etc.). And no one would really be concerned about being “taken from” because the primary concern of everyone would be “giving to” others – you know…like Jesus!
Randy
Hi Randy,
You’re long replies are wearing me out.
I understand about my life experiences being a filter through which I might critique Louie, etc. My wife is a Licensed Master Social Worker so aside from working on those issue before marrying her I now get a trained experts insight in those areas, when I ask. I don’t believe my past is influencing my present as much as you think.
I will admit this: my past does give me a tendency to want perspectives and issues of the church to be worked out biblically. How did the local church function, etc. in Scripture.
I’m with you on the “building on anothers foundation” geographically. However, where are those Christians going to come from who attend Passion? Mostly other churches, I assume. I was listening to Tim Keller recently and he made a statement to the effect that most well known preachers attract Christians from other churches so they are not growing due to evangelism. This is my concern with any celebrity type in planting a church.
If you haven’t noticed during the recent years there has been a few movements going on in evangelicalism. Two prominent ones are mysticism as seen in those promoting contemplative prayer and post-modernism as seen in the emergent church-types. These are the reasons for my referencing mysticism and the area of words and meanings.
I appreciate your response and the kinds words you’ve said about me. Just to be clear. I have no disdain for Louie and the others. I love them in the Lord just as I do you.
Who knows, maybe one day we can get together since we aren’t far apart.
Soli Deo Gloria,
Mark
Mark,
Oops…my bad. I’ve actually enjoyed the exchange of ideas a little bit in this forum. Don’t mean to overdo it….but remember, you did formulate nearly 30 different issues and questions in the original post
That’s great….glad your wife has both the credentials and the ability to keep you “in line”. I would say that our “PAST” is 100% of what we bring to the “PRESENT” as we move to the “FUTURE” at every moment/event of our lives. So, I think that our past affects our present deeply and profoundly in ways that not even we could possibly understand. Of course as we change over time we may be able to affect “what part of our past” and “how much of that part of our past” we allow to affect our present reality. I think your past and my past influence our present more than we will ever be able to think.
Where will the Christians come from?
Don’t know. But, I think the leaders should pray (and I assume they have already been) and see how God answers. (I could say a lot more here…)
Regarding Tim Keller’s statement, I would ask are these people leaving because they’re not being fed or because they will not eat and mature in Christ (see previous reply to AbClay). Also, are the churches they are leaving actually churches that are growing or churches that are stagnant. If stagnant….then that negates the “growth by evangelism” argument, because those churches aren’t “growing by evangelism” either…..and maybe a relocation of some of these believers will result in evangelistic success for the Kingdom through this new local body (if the old one just won’t evangelize)…..just one of numerous possibilities.
Too many movements….the “church” adorning herself with ambiguity rather than with Christ. Puke… (Rev. 3:16)!!
Now….how was that for short and simple??
You take care and work hard. Love your God….your wife….and your daughter….and then the masses!
SDG,
Randy
Randy,
I didn’t really mean you were wearing me out. But I’m sure you know how long post can be time consuming. That’s all I meant.
I’ve enjoyed this discussion as well.
Mark