Below is my response to Randy’s original comment to my post. I’m going to most post my reply rather than copy and paste the whole exchange. You can read it at comment #9.
My initial post was me grabbing comments that stood out for one reason or another and then responding to them. This post is not to discredit Passion Church, but to promote healthy discussion in these areas of the local church.
Point 1: Shooting Bumper Stickers
“I gave it a shot” doesn’t sound like a “Try Jesus” bumper sticker to Randy, fine. That’s how it initially struck me. I didn’t mean to be unfair, but it does come across as “Try Church” if they are only starting with having worship services part-time.
This ties into Randy’s mention of discerning what is in Giglio’s “heart”. It might be what’s in his heart, but that’s a very subjective position from which to argue. There are many things in our hearts, both good and bad. There is an objective side to being called into ministry. I would look at the situation of a “failed” church plant more along the lines of – God, you must not have wanted this for my life – rather than “I gave it a shot.” Just as you see Paul in Scripture tell us that the Holy Spirit did not want him to go to certain areas.
The problem with the personal vs. community accountability is that starting a church does not start and end with simple personal accountability. I do agree, however, that we could see a more concrete working out of God’s will over time.
Point 2: Building The Church
If they let their friends join them in building the Passion church then they are not only building on someone else’s foundation, they are taking away from it. Now, maybe the pastors’ of their friends are onboard with their flock helping build Passion with which I’d be fine. You’d also have to define what “another’s foundation” is as far as how wide the reach, etc. That’s another discussion which is probably not easily settled. Randy, another area we seem to disagree is that if Passion is truly the work of their (Giglio, etc.) own hands then it’s bound to fail. I don’t mean to dichotomize here, but we must see this as a work of God’s hands. My guess is Randy probably doesn’t disagree. I do want to point this out though.
Point 3: Following Other Models
A point that is often used to support a position is that method X is okay because this is how so-and-so did it and they are successful. There might be some wisdom in learning from others in this way, but when it is concerning the church we must first look to biblical wisdom and instruction.
I am familiar with North Point Community Church planting a few churches. Randy’s position is answer in his own reply though because these churches grew out of North Point. The great disservice is not me referring to the efforts of the Passion’s founders as “Try Church”. The disservice is to God for trying to establish a part-time church which might pull members of other congregations away from the body they serve and the pastors who watch over them.
Point 4: Labels
Giglio wants to use the biblical word “church” yet doesn’t want to use contemporary church adjectives. OK, that’s fine. I do understand and scratch my original reply. Maybe the word “passion” in the name is enough to say it all.
Point 5: Life Changing
I don’t think Randy’s dictionary definition of “transact” is helpful at all. It doesn’t define the phrase I asked about. I would rather have Giglio’s answer because the phrase “life-changing transaction with their Creator” can have so many meanings. If he means the Gospel clearly spelled out and lived out biblically, fine. If not, then what? Randy quotes Isaiah 1:18 and I say there are more in the surrounding verses that some just may not like too much to experience.
Point 6: Exaltation
Another dictionary definition. This time the word is exalt. I asked what it means to “know” this is happening. Is it a feeling? Mood? Music? Or is it that Jesus and His Gospel is the center and God is honored as biblically as possible?
Point 7: Youthful Vibes
My question was just why if God doesn’t give the church a youthful vibe, but an older one. My point is though why does he care? He already dismissed wanting to label the church with contemporary church adjectives.
I do understand his desire to want certain things to be certain ways. We all do this, but we just don’t know what kind of vibe God might give. The idea of the older members reaching out to the younger, if that’s what he means, is a great idea since people do tend to build cliques by age and what not.
Point 8: Rest & Move
OK, I may have pulled the trigger a little quickly on this one. The statement just reminds me of a kind of mysticism. I thought of the phrase “presence of God rests and moves” in light of God actually being present. There doesn’t have to be a difference, but there could be so it all comes back to what Giglio actually means.
Point 9: Crazy Steps
To a Christian who is called to pastoral ministry those steps don’t necessarily look crazy at all. Just read the Bible and see what God has done in His people. I agree that we are and will continue to be amazed at what God does in our lives. Especially, how He does things.
Point 10: Words & Meaning
I’m glad Randy has been helped by Giglio. I’m certainly not questioning that one cannot be helped in such a manner. Some of the phrases used just seem ambiguous. I think as Christians, we need to be careful in the way we describe the experiences we have in the church. Some people coming looking for certain experiences that they might walk away feeling certain ways. When these personal, subjective expectations aren’t met they become disappointed. This disappointment is unhealthy and might be towards God or their local church. As a whole we can do better in this area.
Final Thoughts
I hope the Lord blesses the Passion Church if that is His will. I hope that those in leadership there will take seriously those who the Lord has given to other pastors. I hope this will be done and a very high respect will be given for other local churches and they will work with those pastors. Local church members should be discouraged from hoping from church to church like they are trying out the next best fad.
I wish churches that send flyers out to neighborhoods would include a disclaimer. Something like: If you are currently involved with and are a member of another local church please disregard this flyer. The Lord has given your soul to your current pastor to watch over and give account.
For what it’s worth…
Mark
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