The Shack Review

by Mark on August 8, 2008

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A friend from church wrote a brief review of The Shack that touches on some key points as to why we should be cautious about this book.  Or maybe even disregard it all together.  He gave me permission to share this review.

SHACK ATTACK – OR A CALL TO DISCERNMENT?

Discernment is not simply a matter of telling the difference between what is right and wrong; rather it is the difference between right and almost right.” -Charles Spurgeon

At the encouragement of friends, I recently read The Shack by William P. Young. A national bestseller widely embraced by some churches and many professing Christians, The  Shack is a work of fiction that embodies lengthy conversations between the main character, a man named Mack, and three persons who represent a version of the Trinity.

Frankly, I was dismayed at many messages conveyed by The Shack and have been surprised that many of my Christian friends have read the book uncritically, finding it a charming and heart-warming story. Some say that it is unfair to have theological expectations since the book is fiction. However, The Shack is marketed as a spiritually transforming book, and it being received that way by many.

It seems to me that a more critical reading is required of The Shack than a secular work of fiction because the author creates characters that purport to speak as God and to guide Mack on his spiritual journey. The fictional story becomes a device to have characters representing the Godhead explain a particular theology. As believers, our spiritual antennas should be fully deployed when we approach such a book.

In The Shack, God the Father appears to Mack as a large, jovial black woman whom Mack calls “Papa.” The Holy Spirit appears as a small Asian woman, and Jesus appears as a Jewish man. Putting aside gender confusion and the attempt to give human form and voice to the Father and Holy Spirit (“no man hath seen God at any time,” John 1:8), it is critical for the Christian reader to carefully consider the message author Young has those voices bring and to weigh their message in the light of the clear teaching of the Bible. That is to exercise discernment, a requirement – not an option – for Christians.

When we read The Shack with discernment, I submit that we find many distortions and untruths. Consider just a few of the words Young puts in the mouths of his created Trinity (my comments are within the parentheses):

Papa to Mack: “We [the Trinity] have limited ourselves out of respect for you.” (Isn’t this Open Theism – God choosing to limit Himself?)

Jesus: “God, who is the ground of all being, dwells in, around, and through all things . . .” (Isn’t this Pantheism – God in all things?)

Sarayu (Young’s Sanscrit name for the Holy Spirit): “We [the Trinity] carefully respect your choices, so we work within your systems even while we seek to free you from them.” (“Neither are your ways my ways . . . my ways are higher than your ways.” Isaiah 55:8-9. Does God respect man’s choices, or does His Word demand that we repent of our ways and that we enter His narrow way?)

Sarayu: “Both evil and darkness can only be understood in relation to Light and Good; they do not have any actual existence . . . Light and Good actually exist.” (Really? Does the Bible teach that evil has no actual existence? Was the biblical Jesus aware of that when He conversed with Satan in the desert temptation?)

Papa: “I don’t need to punish people for sin Sin is its own punishment, devouring you from the inside. It is not my purpose to punish it; it’s my joy to cure it.” (Certainly there are consequences of our sin which we realize in this life and which impact other people. And certainly God has provided the cure for sin. That “cure” is the penal substitutionary atonement of Christ on the cross. Most certainly there is punishment for sin. Christ suffered the punishment for us. However, the implication of Papa’s statement is that the only punishment for sin is sin’s own punishment in a person’s life. The Bible is clear that punishment for the unredeemed, those who refuse Christ’s atonement, is the sting of spiritual death and eternal separation from God. The Shack makes light work of the cross.)

Young’s Jesus character states that he, Papa, and Sarayu are “indeed submitted to one another and have always been so and always will be . . . . In fact, we [the Trinity] are submitted to you [Mack] in the same way.” (Why, then, did the biblical Jesus submit Himself to the will of His father? Does the Bible teach submission to authority in spiritual and family and secular environments? What do you make of the claim that the Trinity is submitted to us? I believe that Young’s anti-authoritarianism is risky in human terms and that it is blasphemous to attribute such egalitarian sentiments to God.)

When requested by Papa to forgive the murderer of his young daughter, Mack balks. Papa says, “Mack, for you to forgive this man is for you to release him to me and allow me to redeem him.” (So God can only redeem those whom humans have forgiven and have released to God for redemption? The effectiveness of redemption for the unrepentant murderer is to be accomplished with Mack’s participation? Find biblical support for that, my friends!)

Christian, what about this assertion by the Jesus of The Shack? “I am the best way any human can relate to Papa or Sarayu.” (This is a false Jesus. The Jesus Christ of the Bible does not say that He is the best way, He says, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me.” John 14:16. He is not the best way – He is the only way.)

The Shack evidences a low regard for Scripture. When Mack mentions biblical events or concepts, Papa brushes them off and glibly explains how it really is, thus suggesting that the Bible is the work of man, not the divinely inspired work of God. Yet, some argue that The Shack has value in that it demonstrates a loving God of grace who invites man to a relationship. But it does so with grievous distortions about the nature of God, the nature of the Trinity, the authority of God’s Word, God’s hatred of sin, the requirement of repentance, and the nature of conversion and salvation.

My brothers and sisters, even in reading and discussing a work of fiction, we must be prepared to “contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints” (Jude 3), and to do so without apology to the world. The Shack may, from its human author’s viewpoint, be in all sincerity intended as an inviting look at a highly relational God, but would you place even a drop of poison in pure water and invite others to drink? As Dr. Albert Mohler, president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, said, The Shack “contains undiluted heresy.” Don’t you and I have a responsibility to be equipped to recognize heresy and to shine the light of truth so that we and others are not deceived?

- Wayne Elliott

Download as pdf

p.s. I addressed some of the objections to this review: Is the Shack Only Fiction?

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  • Mark,

    Thanks for the review. It squares with most other people's view whom I respect.

    Les
  • Mark:

    Tremendous review! Thank you for this helpful insight into this popular and disturbing trend to fictionalize God and recreate Him in our own image.

    May I also post this on my blog as well? Wayne did an excellent job.

    Grace and peace,
    Steve
    Col. 3:23-24
  • Bro. Steve,

    Please post it on your blog if you like. I'm sure Wayne would appreciate it.

    I like that the review is to the point and won't take too long to read.

    Peace to you,

    Mark
  • Robin
    Thank you for this written analysis of what my heart/spirit was feeling as I read this book. I couldn't articulate what seemed wrong. It is an easy and enjoyable read and contains some beautiful emotional healing and forgiveness which is made possible by our Lord's sacrifice on the cross ... but our God is Holy and His Word endures forever and The Shack fails to give glory to God as He reveals Himself in the Bible. I have been praying for God to reveal truth to me about this and to His children. I am sad that this books seems to be getting fully embraced and endorced by many many Christians. Praise Him for the gift of discernment. His Name is forever praised!
  • Shelly Cox
    Excellent review!! I read "The Shack," and Young would say something wonderful about the Lord, and then the next statement would be a direct word against the Word of God. James 1:4, 4:8, Young speaks double-minded. I get the feeling he hasn't truly repented, so he speaks more from the mind that loves the world. I pray Christians would really dig in their Bibles, and get to learn Christian theology!!! Shelly Cox
  • Thank you all for your comments of appreciation. I've let bro. Wayne know and he is very encouraged.

    His review was actually mentioned in our SS class this morning.

    Mark
  • [...] “Discernment is not simply a matter of telling the difference between what is right and wrong; rather it is the difference between right and almost right.” -Charles Spurgeon [...]
  • Tom
    Thanks for this review. I am in the process of reading it now and throughout the meeting of the 3 with Mack I sensed in my spirit that something was not right but could not put my finger on it until the part where Jesus did not declare himself THE Way.
    Thanks again
  • Mike
    Interesting review. Unfortunately, I think it not only misses the point of the book but seems to find criticism for the sake of criticism. Advice to Christians to be discerning is excellent. However, understanding must accompany discernment. The review seems short on understanding.

    The overall theme of the book is the incredible love that God has for us and his desire to bring us into a close relationship with Him. That is a very powerful message and one that all Christians should let sink deeply into their soul. Secondly, this book is a story intended to convey that and other concepts. It is not presented as a complete theological exposition nor a factual account. Reading it literally misses the thrust of the story and paves the way for misconceptions.

    Regarding some of the criticisms:

    Papa to Mack: “We [the Trinity] have limited ourselves out of respect for you.” (Isn’t this Open Theism – God choosing to limit Himself?)

    No, it's not open theism. In the context of the story, God is simply saying that his majesty was being limited at that time so that there could be interaction with Mack. Do you not think that God limited his majesty in His interaction with Moses, Abraham, Paul, etc.? Nothing really novel there.

    Sarayu (Young’s Sanscrit name for the Holy Spirit): “We [the Trinity] carefully respect your choices, so we work within your systems even while we seek to free you from them.” (“Neither are your ways my ways . . . my ways are higher than your ways.” Isaiah 55:8-9. Does God respect man’s choices, or does His Word demand that we repent of our ways and that we enter His narrow way?)

    Of course God respects our choices. That's called free will. God never forces his will on us. He respects (or allows) our right to choose. He then works with our choices, whether good or bad. Did God not respect Adam and Eve's choice? He allowed them freely to choose to disobey and then worked with that historic choice to bring about reconciliation through Christ's death and resurrection. It appears the reviewer may be confused by the limitation he has placed on the word "respect." Respect means, among other things, a courteous regards for. God must respect, or give courteous regards towards, our choices, otherwise free will would not exist. Yet, that is one of the fundamental attibutes of our being and His nature. Again, nothing controversial there.

    Sarayu: “Both evil and darkness can only be understood in relation to Light and Good; they do not have any actual existence . . . Light and Good actually exist.” (Really? Does the Bible teach that evil has no actual existence? Was the biblical Jesus aware of that when He conversed with Satan in the desert temptation?)

    Is black a color or is it the absence of color? We know from science that it is the absence of color, which in a sense means that it has no independent existence. It's existence can only exist in relation to color. I think what Young is getting at here is the perplexing question of why did God create evil. Perhaps He didn't. If evil does not have a separate existence, then God did not create it. Like black, evil does not exist of itself but only in relation to good - which is God. Therefore, as one moves further from God, that state of being is defined as evil. Satan, who moved from so close to so far from God, is the ultimate expression of evil. But that can be said only in relation to God. In other words, without God, evil does not exist on its own. It exists only in relation to God as an adverse relationship - it increases as beings move away from complete Goodness who is God. That concept is what I think Young was conveying. The reviewer, in my opinion, completely missed the depth of the thought there.

    Papa: “I don’t need to punish people for sin Sin is its own punishment, devouring you from the inside. It is not my purpose to punish it; it’s my joy to cure it.” (Certainly there are consequences of our sin which we realize in this life and which impact other people. And certainly God has provided the cure for sin. That “cure” is the penal substitutionary atonement of Christ on the cross. Most certainly there is punishment for sin. Christ suffered the punishment for us. However, the implication of Papa’s statement is that the only punishment for sin is sin’s own punishment in a person’s life. The Bible is clear that punishment for the unredeemed, those who refuse Christ’s atonement, is the sting of spiritual death and eternal separation from God. The Shack makes light work of the cross.)

    After the discussion between Sophia and Mack, how could one possibly conclude that The Shack makes light work of the cross? Just the opposite is the case. The incredible sacrifice and love of God the Father and Jesus are vividly protrayed in that encounter. Do you think it is God's "purpose" to punish for sin? Young is correct. Sin does eat away at a person to such an extent that it will devour the person who lives in it. Reading the book as a whole, I didn't find the implication there at all. No, Young doesn't say in the book that if one does not accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, they will burn in hell for all eternity. Neither does he dispute that. Is it necessary in a sermon speaking of God's love to also speak of hell or the sermon is in error? I don't think so. Young conveys the same point by speaking of independence from God as leading to evil.

    Young’s Jesus character states that he, Papa, and Sarayu are “indeed submitted to one another and have always been so and always will be . . . . In fact, we [the Trinity] are submitted to you [Mack] in the same way.” (Why, then, did the biblical Jesus submit Himself to the will of His father? Does the Bible teach submission to authority in spiritual and family and secular environments? What do you make of the claim that the Trinity is submitted to us? I believe that Young’s anti-authoritarianism is risky in human terms and that it is blasphemous to attribute such egalitarian sentiments to God.)

    I believe Young was trying to expound on the nature of the relationship among the three persons of God and that relationship to us. That relationship is one of perfect love. God is perfect love. When you read Corinthians, Paul describes the nature of love. Certainly, there are elements of submission in the nature of love.

    (To be continued)
  • judydavis_fuller
    Mike, I could not agree with you more! Your indepth review was much more accurate. It's too bad that so many people want to jump on something that is very inspiring and trash it, just because they can. I read the book, went out and bought another copy to pass around to others so that they can read it and form their own conclusions. So far, I've had nothing but rave reviews of those who have read it. It brought me a feeling of an even closer relationship to God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, than I had before. God is pure love. God forgives us our sins when other can't or won't. Yes, it's a work of fiction...'nuff said! If it can help anyone develope a closer relationship to God, then what's the problem? Thank you Mike, for setting things more clearly!
  • William Johnton
    Why are more of us not as balanced as Mike. What are we so afraid of? We act as though we need to defend God and close him up in our neat little thological boxes, and in so doing cause friction and strife among believers. All this negative flap about THE SHACK feels like a territorial battle to me.
  • William Johnton
    Replace "thological" with theological in the above comment.
  • It comes down to Who is God and how has He revealed Himself to us?

    (Gone til tonight...)
  • Mike
    (Continued)

    When requested by Papa to forgive the murderer of his young daughter, Mack balks. Papa says, “Mack, for you to forgive this man is for you to release him to me and allow me to redeem him.” (So God can only redeem those whom humans have forgiven and have released to God for redemption? The effectiveness of redemption for the unrepentant murderer is to be accomplished with Mack’s participation? Find biblical support for that, my friends!)

    Yes, I didn't quite understand what Young was getting at on this one either. I don't think he was setting up an "if ... then" scenario however because at a later point in that conversation God told Mack that He would mete out justice on the murderer, that it was not up to Mack to do so. I think the focus was more on forgiveness and the healing that Mack would experience by doing so rather than God then being allowed to redeem him. Obviously, God's redemption of an individual has nothing to do with our prior forgiveness of that individual. I think Young was simply saying, forgive this person and give his redemption (or justice) up to God's hands, not your own.

    Christian, what about this assertion by the Jesus of The Shack? “I am the best way any human can relate to Papa or Sarayu.” (This is a false Jesus. The Jesus Christ of the Bible does not say that He is the best way, He says, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me.” John 14:16. He is not the best way – He is the only way.)

    Jesus is the best way any human can relate to God. He is not the only way humans can relate to God. We can relate to God through the Holy Spirit. OT humans related to God without knowing Jesus. Persons today who have never heard of Jesus, or the God of the OT, but have a belief in a one almighty being, are relating to God. Jews are relating to God. However, Jesus is certainly the only way to salvation. Given the book as a whole, and Young's stated beliefs elsewhere, I don't believe Young was saying anything different.

    The Shack evidences a low regard for Scripture. When Mack mentions biblical events or concepts, Papa brushes them off and glibly explains how it really is, thus suggesting that the Bible is the work of man, not the divinely inspired work of God. Yet, some argue that The Shack has value in that it demonstrates a loving God of grace who invites man to a relationship. But it does so with grievous distortions about the nature of God, the nature of the Trinity, the authority of God’s Word, God’s hatred of sin, the requirement of repentance, and the nature of conversion and salvation.

    I just don't see this in the book. Young doesn't emphasize scripture; neither does he say that it's worthless or can be added to. The Shack is a fictional work about a visit and conversations with a man and God. In the course of those conversations, many scriptural concepts are validated. It would be odd in the context of the story for Papa to be talking about his love for his children, so much that Jesus sacrificed himself to bring reconciliation, and then throw out: "That's in John 3:16 you know." It just doesn't fit with the story line. However, scripture is presented clearly in the context of the story. Nowhere that I read does Papa suggest that scripture is the work of man. He does imply that scripture can be misused by man, which it certainly can and has.

    I may have missed it, but I didn't see any "grievous distortions about the nature of God, the nature of the Trinity, the authority of God’s Word, God’s hatred of sin, the requirement of repentance, and the nature of conversion and salvation". For example, Papa said that what the murderer did was terrible and very wrong and that Mack had a right to be angry about it. Yet He also said that the murderer is one of his children and that He loves him also. Is that bad theology? Not based on my reading of scripture.

    I believe it's really a question of emphasis. Obviously, Young is emphasizing God's infinite love and mercy, not his wrath and judgment. Does not Paul do the same thing in some of his letters and not others? Is a sermon in error that speaks only of God's love and desire for relationship but does not add the caveat - you'll go to hell if you don't enter into that relationship? If so, I've heard a lot of sermons from solid Christian pastors in my years that would be considered a "grievous distortion".

    The Shack is about God's overwhelming love for man and his desire to heal us emotionally so that we will be free to have a full relationship with him. It makes clear that Jesus is at the center of that plan. I cannot find fault in that message.
  • Bryce Andrews
    For you shall know them by there fruits.
    The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness.
    The book The Shack, fictional as it may
    be, is a love story. Just as the bible is
    the love story of Christ. Religious people
    will not accept this book, for they are still eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Those who eat from the tree of life will see the fruits. The author has simply expressed himself and his love for god. And just as Jesus was persecuted for doing so, So will be the author of The Shack. Aside from the bible itself, This is the best book I’ve ever read.
  • So Bryce, what are you saying? That those who don't endorse The Shack
    aren' t Christians? Your reply didn't make much sense.

    Because people disagree with the author's presentation of God as revealed in Scripture this is akin to Jesus persecution? Really now?

    Those critiquing the book have simply expressed themselves and their love for God.

    You need to read more.

    Mark
  • Mike wrote: "The Shack is about God’s overwhelming love for man and his desire to heal us emotionally so that we will be free to have a full relationship with him. It makes clear that Jesus is at the center of that plan. I cannot find fault in that message."

    Actually, The Bible is about God's overwhelming love and it is sufficient and necessary to understand God as He Himself has revealed Himself, not they way Mr. Young wants to imagine him. There is a huge difference between God putting His words in the mouths of the prophets and E.P. Young attempting to put his words into the mouth of God.

    Mike also wrote: Papa said that what the murderer did was terrible and very wrong and that Mack had a right to be angry about it. Yet He also said that the murderer is one of his children and that He loves him also. Is that bad theology? Not based on my reading of scripture.

    How do you reconcile your belief that God loves everyone without exception, regardless of what they have done with Scripture? It is only those whom Christ has called and exchange His righteousness for their sin that the Father looks on with love. Those unredeemed, unregenerate, and unrepentant sinners are judged, and unless you have completely misunderstood or disregarded the truth of God's wrath, then your statement has no scriptural basis. Here are just a few passages that spring immediately to my mind that refute this idea that God is completely loving and forgiving, despite all of our shortcomings and open rebellion:

    Gal 5:19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
    Gal 5:20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
    Gal 5:21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

    Joh 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
    Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
    Joh 3:19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
    Joh 3:20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

    Joh 14:22 Judas (not Iscariot) *said to Him, "Lord, what then has happened that You are going to disclose Yourself to us and not to the world?"
    Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.
    Joh 14:24 "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me.

    Joh 15:5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
    Joh 15:6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

    Mat 7:15 "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
    Mat 7:16 "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
    Mat 7:17 "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
    Mat 7:18 "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
    Mat 7:19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
    Mat 7:20 "So then, you will know them by their fruits.
    Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
    Mat 7:22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
    Mat 7:23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

    Mat 13:24 Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field.
    Mat 13:25 "But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away.
    Mat 13:26 "But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also.
    Mat 13:27 "The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?'
    Mat 13:28 "And he said to them, 'An enemy has done this!' The slaves *said to him, 'Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?'
    Mat 13:29 "But he *said, 'No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them.
    Mat 13:30 'Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn."'"
    Mat 13:37 And He said, "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man,
    Mat 13:38 and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;
    Mat 13:39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.
    Mat 13:40 "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
    Mat 13:41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
    Mat 13:42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    Mat 13:47 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind;
    Mat 13:48 and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away.
    Mat 13:49 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,
    Mat 13:50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    1Jn 1:5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.
    1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;
    1Jn 1:7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
    1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
    1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
    1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

    2Pe 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
    2Pe 2:2 Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned;
    2Pe 2:3 and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
    2Pe 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;
    2Pe 2:5 and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;
    2Pe 2:6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;
    2Pe 2:7 and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men
    2Pe 2:8 (for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day by their lawless deeds),
    2Pe 2:9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment,
    2Pe 2:10 and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties,
    2Pe 2:11 whereas angels who are greater in might and power do not bring a reviling judgment against them before the Lord.
    2Pe 2:12 But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed,
    2Pe 2:13 suffering wrong as the wages of doing wrong. They count it a pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are stains and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, as they carouse with you,
    2Pe 2:14 having eyes full of adultery that never cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, having a heart trained in greed, accursed children;
    2Pe 2:15 forsaking the right way, they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
    2Pe 2:16 but he received a rebuke for his own transgression, for a mute donkey, speaking with a voice of a man, restrained the madness of the prophet.
    2Pe 2:17 These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved.
    2Pe 2:18 For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error,
    2Pe 2:19 promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved.
    2Pe 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
    2Pe 2:21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
    2Pe 2:22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

    In Christ,
    Simple Mann
  • @Bryce - you wrote: The book The Shack, fictional as it may
    be, is a love story. Just as the bible is
    the love story of Christ. Religious people
    will not accept this book, for they are still eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Those who eat from the tree of life will see the fruits. The author has simply expressed himself and his love for god. And just as Jesus was persecuted for doing so, So will be the author of The Shack. Aside from the bible itself, This is the best book I’ve ever read.


    Wow, so those of us who read and trust in The Bible, God's inspired and divinely revealed Word are guilty of eating from the tree of knowledge and so are condemned by it, and those who read and trust in the God of The Shack are eating from the tree of life? And comparing E. P. Young to Jesus, as if there is any similarity at all--that is outright blasphemy. And people wonder why discerning believers have a problem with this book and its author? Your sin finds you out.

    Joh 3:19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.

    The best book I've ever read and the only one to truly change my life is the Bible. I highly recommend it to you. I would also recommend a little book by Frederick Leahy entitled "The Cross He Bore". If you want a true love story and a real picture of Christ's suffering--its purpose, it's cause, and it's effect--it will do you much more good than the fictitious work you have set as an idol in your heart.

    http://www.amazon.com/Cross-He-Bore-Frederick-L...

    I pray that your eyes will be opened, but unless God opens them you will be blind forever.

    In Christ,
    Simple Mann
  • Simple Mann,

    Thank you for those comments.

    I appreciate them.

    In Him,

    Mark
  • Christian H.
    Well I haven't read the book yet and I though I'd rather not waste my time I probably will anyway - simply for the purpose of seeing the debate.

    That said...

    The problem I already see with this book is that is causing division. Some see a problem, others love the "fictitious story". Both sides could still very well be saved Christians, but one is right and one is wrong and it causes division.

    The second problem I see is that (from excerpts I have read) it does in fact contradict scripture. Fiction or not this is very dangerous territory. It is very frustrating how many "spiritual" people are drawn in by books like this or about angels, or miracles or healing - that are slightly, way off base or just plainly have nothing to do with our true God, the Holy Spirit and His son Jesus. The bible warns over and over not to be deceived or to deceive others. Just my opinion.
  • Susan
    It is very interesting to see such division among believers. Reminds me of the " religious" Pharisees who also accused Jesus of blasphemy and heresy. God does not call us to legalism but to love...His love through the gift of salvation in Jesus. This love will always prevail...hence the message of The Shack!
  • nate_speer
    Susan or others defending the Shack, with a great deal of respect...do you also like and agree with the Prayer of Jabez? I as well do not like the division but at some times it is necessary. Unfortunate, but necessary to uphold the truth. I ca appreciate the message of the book, however am fully against an afraid of the dangerous themes and underpinnings clearly against what the Word teaches. Discernment is needed in many of these cases in my opinion.

    Seeking Wisdom and the Truth, in Love,

    Nate
  • @Susan - and here we have it again from someone who loves the shack. Here is the argument: If you reject the theology in the shack (which is not the theology of God), then you are a Pharisee. If you love the universalist message of the shack, then you have grace.

    Here is the problem with that argument. I don't think that anyone who has a problem with the shack are Old Testament legalists who seek to justify themselves by keeping the law of Moses. We do not seek to justify ourselves before God by our own righteous effort. We realize that without the saving grace of our Lord, we have absolutely nothing but our sin to hang on to.

    The theology that is so important to us is the theology of God's grace revealed by God through His word. It is essential to grasp that because unless you truly understand it, you cannot take hold of it. When someone comes along and preaches a different gospel, regardless of what they add or subtract, as followers of Christ we have been instructed to protect the body of believers from doctrinal error and falsehoods that would lead the sheep astray.

    I understand that this book made a lot of people cry and then made them comfortable about their own painful experiences. The problem is, though, that a man has put his own words into God's mouth in the shack (as if that were possible) rather than God putting them into a man's (in the Bible).

    Many people have read the shack and loved it. Many have claimed to have changed lives, although despite all of the claims I have not heard one single testimony about a changed life as a result of reading this book. And although everyone claims to love the Bible, there are honestly very few who read it and and truly dig into it. I think perhaps the most disturbing thing to me is the sheer number of people who are claiming to have that life-changing experience, a better understanding of God's love, a better relationship with God, and all the other claims--NOT as a result of reading God's word, BUT as a result of reading a work of FICTION! Surely the irony is not lost here. Here is the point I wish to posit. All of those changed lives, deeper understandings, improved relationships, being based NOT on God but on fiction are, in and of themselves, merely fictions, too!

    Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
    Joh 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
    Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
    Joh 3:19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
    Joh 3:20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
    Joh 3:21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."


    In Christ,
    Simple Mann
  • Christian H.
    Susan -
    Should we also embrace "The Secret", "A New Earth" or other books that contradict scripture, reveal new ideas and become instant best-sellers in "love".

    Yes we should love. We should also be very discerning, accept truth and reject lies. This isn't legalism.
  • Mike
    Simple Mann,

    You said: "Actually, The Bible is about God’s overwhelming love and it is sufficient and necessary to understand God as He Himself has revealed Himself, not they way Mr. Young wants to imagine him. There is a huge difference between God putting His words in the mouths of the prophets and E.P. Young attempting to put his words into the mouth of God."

    Yes, the Bible is THE book about God's love for man. It is sacred scripture and nothing rises to its level as the very word of God. That being said, however, it is erroneous, and quite surprising, to make the argument that nothing else should be considered in helping us to understand God. Do you also reject C.S. Lewis' Chronicles of Narnia? Do you reject the movie Joshua? Do you reject Michaelangelo's interpretive painting of the Creation? Do you reject all sermons by pastors expounding on what this or that passage of the Bible really means? Do you reject Christian songs that "put words" into God's mouth about his love for us? It seems to me if you reject The Shack on the basis stated, you have to reject everything.

    You also wrote: "How do you reconcile your belief that God loves everyone without exception, regardless of what they have done with Scripture? It is only those whom Christ has called and exchange His righteousness for their sin that the Father looks on with love. Those unredeemed, unregenerate, and unrepentant sinners are judged, and unless you have completely misunderstood or disregarded the truth of God’s wrath, then your statement has no scriptural basis. Here are just a few passages that spring immediately to my mind that refute this idea that God is completely loving and forgiving, despite all of our shortcomings and open rebellion".

    All I can say to this is Wow! Your position on this represents a completely foreign concept to me about the nature of God. You're saying that God does not love sinners??? He only loves those who have accepted Christ as their saviour??? That is quite a novel view. Based on the scriptures you provided, I think you are confusing judgment with love. Those scriptures say nothing about God's love. I love my children, but that does not prevent me from punishing them when they have disobeyed.

    Here are a couple scriptures for you to consider:

    For God so loved the WORLD that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16.

    Romans 6:6: You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
    9Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! 10For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

    God demonstrated his love for us while we were still sinners. His love is manifest for sinners and saved. Those who accept Christ and enter into relationship with him will have eternal life. Those who die having rejected him will have eternal death. But, until death, God's love is ever present to sinners and saints alike because "He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9.

    Honestly, I have never heard anyone take the position that God only loves those who repent. Are you saying that God hated me before I became a Christian? Did he hate Paul while he was persecuting the Christians? Did he hate John Newton while he was still a slave trader? Surely that is not the view you hold of God?
  • DNelson
    My main concern with the Shack is that it seems to smack of universalism. Papa calls everyone her children, seemingly whether they believe in Jesus or not. Yet the Bible says that we are adopted into God’s family when we accept Christ. You don’t adopt your own children. This is a dangerous teaching.

    I appreciate the words of those who caution us to be discerning when reading a book like the shack. Yes, the book has some great thoughts regarding forgiveness and relationship, but at the same time, it falls short theologically, as has been adequately pointed out. We would be unwise to dismiss the criticisms. And, like it or not, theology IS important. As followers of Christ, we can’t let ourselves fall into the mindset that as long as we are loving people, it doesn’t matter so much what we believe. Yes, love is the greatest command, but it is not the only one. Jesus claimed to BE Truth. Jesus, as Messiah, was seen to be a prophet, a revealer OF Truth. As Christians (little Christs) we need to be in the business of being and revealing Truth as well. We are exhorted in Scripture to have sound doctrine. That is important to God. So if The Shack borders on heresy, in any way, it needs to be called out and brought to our attention. This is not unloving. It is a job of the Church, specifically of those with the gift of discernment. Those of us without as much discernment would do well to consider the words of our fellow believers.

    The fact that many Christians are getting checks in their spirit or outright detecting theological error should give us pause. Nobody’s theology is perfect. We need to be able to eat the meat and spit the bones. But many of our concerns are for those people who aren’t able to discern the difference or who, in their zeal for the good aspects of the book, buy the falsehoods as well.
    In Him,

    DNelson
  • @Mike, you wrote: "Honestly, I have never heard anyone take the position that God only loves those who repent. Are you saying that God hated me before I became a Christian? Did he hate Paul while he was persecuting the Christians? Did he hate John Newton while he was still a slave trader? Surely that is not the view you hold of God?"

    The only reference to the word "hate" from my previous post was from scripture itself:

    Joh 3:17 “For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
    Joh 3:18 “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
    Joh 3:19 “This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
    Joh 3:20 “For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.


    You are trying to put words in my mouth that I did not say, just as your beloved author has done with God in the Shack. I did not say that God hated the unrepentant. Christ Himself declared that He came not for the righteous, but for sinners. I thank Him unceasingly for that because I was once dead and lost in sins and trespasses. But guess what? Even when I was dead and lost, I thought God not only loved me, but He accepted me just the way I was. And the fact of the matter was, I was at enmity with Him, as are most in the world. I rejected the Bible, I rejected sin, I rejected salvation and the need for a Savior. Interestingly enough, I could have read The Shack back then and thoroughly enjoyed it. I would have felt comfortable just being who I was, a Christ-rejecting sinner because of that message that no matter what God doesn't just love me, He accepts me as I am. I am afraid that is NOT the case.

    You quoted Romans. Read it in its entirety. Read the gospels, too. Please tell me where it says God forgives everyone out of His bountiful love. Meditate on His wrath a while. And while it's easy to recognize and readily admit that "God hates sin", as someone else said "God hates sin, but He punishes the sinners." My Savior commanded repeatedly, "Repent" and "Go and sin no more". He also had some harsh words for the religious people of His times that sought to justify themselves with their own works of righteousness.

    In my opinion, any "Christian" work (fictitious or otherwise) that attempts to present a gospel message that does not confront sinners with the depravity of their sin and lead them to true repentance and faith in Christ, but rather leaves them comfortable and complete in their sin is dangerous and to be despised. To borrow a quote from Spurgeon, "If your religion does not make you holy it will damn you to hell."

    In Christ,
    Simple Mann
  • DNelson brought up another good point about the shack in that Papa calls everyone her children. I just posted this on my blog site today and thought it was worth sharing with regards to his comment...

    Someone who visited my site today did so after entering the search term “testimonies from repentant satanists”. For just a second, I felt my pride begin to protest: “Wait a minute - I wasn’t a Satanist.” But in fact I guess I was. If you don’t belong to Christ, you belong to the enemy. If you are a slave to your sin and belong to the devil, you are a Satanist whether you wish to admit it or not. EVERY person who walks in darkness, holds fast to their sin, and rejects Christ is (to God) a Satanist regardless of the more euphemistic labels they choose for themselves.

    Thank You, Lord, once again–that You opened my eyes in the darkness, that You resurrected my soul from the state of sin and death, and that You brought Your Life and Light into the darkness and deadness of my soul. May I never stop rejoicing for the work that You have done, are doing, and will continue. Praise the name of my Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ. Amen.

    Joh 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.
    Joh 8:43 “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
    Joh 8:44 “You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
    Joh 8:45 “But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me.
  • Mike
    Simple Mann,

    It was not my intent to put words into your mouth. I was simply drawing a conclusion from what you had written and asking a question for clarification. If you did not mean that God hates the sinner prior to repentence, then did you mean that God is simply indifferent to him - neither loving nor hating? What is your scriptural support for that position?

    You said: "I rejected the Bible, I rejected sin, I rejected salvation and the need for a Savior. Interestingly enough, I could have read The Shack back then and thoroughly enjoyed it."

    If what you say is true, then you would not have been giving a fair and honest reading to the book for Young makes it clear that the further we move away from Christ and a relationship with God the more evil we become. It is only in close, intimate relationship with God that we are truly living as God intended.

    To me, what The Shack does is relate scripture to the audience with out using more commonplace terms. So, Young speaks of relationship with God rather than being "saved" for example. Why would that approach make the book erroneous?

    You said: " In my opinion, any “Christian” work (fictitious or otherwise) that attempts to present a gospel message that does not confront sinners with the depravity of their sin and lead them to true repentance and faith in Christ, but rather leaves them comfortable and complete in their sin is dangerous and to be despised." You seem to be approaching the book as a Billy Graham crusade. It's not aimed at sinners; it's aimed at Christians. Young is really speaking to Christians who are struggling with emotional hurt in their lives and trying to answer questions such as "Why does God allow bad things to happen to good people?" A sermon on salvation will not help much in that regard. The book is beyond salvation. It is dealing with the Christian walk. As Hebrews 5 says: "13 Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil."

    So, do you believe that any Christian publication which does not relate the gospel of salvation is "dangerous and to be despised?" I'm sure there are many Christian authors that would be surprised to hear that about their books.

    There is no need to admonish me to read Romans. Coincidentally, I read it 3 times in a row last month. It's a beautiful book of the Bible. I've also read the 4 gospels a number of times as well. You said: "Please tell me where it says God forgives everyone out of His bountiful love." Of course, I didn't say that. To the contrary, I said: "Those who accept Christ and enter into relationship with him will have eternal life. Those who die having rejected him will have eternal death." Brother, you're reading things with blinders on wanting to find fault. Pride can stand in the way of discernment.

    Rather than going away to meditate on God's wrath, I think I will meditate on his love for "the Lord is my shepherd and I shall not want."
  • Susan
    Thank you Mike...it is refreshing to know someone "gets it"! The Shack is for the believer! It is not meant to replace scripture, however, we are humans trying to understand God and all He is and with every book ever written fiction or non, we will never fully grasp Him until we see Him in Glory!
  • DNelson
    Susan,

    Whether the book was written for believers specifically or for the general public seems to be beside the point. The issue at hand is whether the book misrepresents God/reality/Christian Truth in any way - which is a serious charge no matter who the intended audience was. The original reviewer was right is saying that we Christians need to be more critical (in the positive sense) in our interaction with a book that purports to be giving truth about God. Truth is just too important to be treated nonchalantly.

    DNelson
  • @Mike - What do you make of the following verses in regard to God's love?

    Psalm 5:5, "The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity,"

    Psalm 11:5, "The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence His soul hates."

    Lev. 20:23, "Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I shall drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them."

    Prov. 6:16-19, "There are six things which the Lord hates, yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, A heart that devises wicked plans, feet that run rapidly to evil, A false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers."

    Hosea 9:15, "All their evil is at Gilgal; indeed, I came to hate them there! Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels."

    Rom 9:10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac;
    Rom 9:11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
    Rom 9:12 it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."
    Rom 9:13 Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."
    Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
    Rom 9:15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."


    You wrote:

    You seem to be approaching the book as a Billy Graham crusade. It’s not aimed at sinners; it’s aimed at Christians. Young is really speaking to Christians who are struggling with emotional hurt in their lives and trying to answer questions such as “Why does God allow bad things to happen to good people?” A sermon on salvation will not help much in that regard. The book is beyond salvation.

    Beyond salvation? I'm sure you will say I am an immature Christian, but how do you get over this magnificent grace? I pray I never get "beyond salvation".

    It is dealing with the Christian walk. As Hebrews 5 says: “13 Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.”

    Ah, here it is again. Just like Susan did earlier, you seem to insinuate that just being fed from the Bible is akin to milk, and that only the mature can digest the solid food of the shack. Do you really think that those folks reading the shack are being fed solid food while the rest of us who are turning to the Bible for nourishment are only getting milk? Wow.

    So, do you believe that any Christian publication which does not relate the gospel of salvation is “dangerous and to be despised?” I’m sure there are many Christian authors that would be surprised to hear that about their books.

    That is not at all what I said. I'll paste the whole last paragraph here so you can read it again:

    In my opinion, any “Christian” work (fictitious or otherwise) that attempts to present a gospel message that does not confront sinners with the depravity of their sin and lead them to true repentance and faith in Christ, but rather leaves them comfortable and complete in their sin is dangerous and to be despised. To borrow a quote from Spurgeon, “If your religion does not make you holy it will damn you to hell.”

    I was specifically addressing those works that put forth a gospel message, which is exactly what is being presented to Mack (and by proxy the reader) in the shack. I can't believe that you would deny that. If it were not so, why would so many people be sending all those copies to their unbelieving friends (a testimony I'm sure we've all seen frequently repeated)?

    I do not mean to seem uncharitable, but honestly, the arguments that I keep seeing people present to defend this book concern me as much as the subtly subversive nature of its message. That so many people sing its praises does not necessarily make it a good thing. There were many in the desert that sang praises to a golden calf, too. Yet God said:

    "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.” (Exodus 20:4-6)

    Might that include quaint old black women named Papa?

    In Christ,
    Simple Mann
  • Christian H.
    Wow, well written post Simple Mann.
    I am even more deeply disturbed now to hear the strong defense of this book; even right in the face of God's Word.
    A person I know, is currently reading this book even though I encouraged her not to. This person has rejected God many times verbally (or more accurately said that she has and "agreement with God") and clings to quick "pick me up" books like this. I'm not surprised that she loves the book and argued that it is something to "introduce people into religion".

    Does anyone remember the book "Conversations with God"?
  • Samuel
    Hi everyone,

    while discussing this book don't forget to remember John 15,12:
    "This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you."

    Greets, Samuel
  • Mike
    Simple Mann,

    Before responding in any detail, I would like to hear how you reconcile the verses in John and Romans I quoted previously with your views about God's love, specifically, your view that God does not love us until we become saved.

    That concept is so foreign to my understanding of God, as fully revealed in Christ, over the last 40 + years of my Chrisitianity that I'm honestly curious about it.
  • Mike
    Simple Mann - PS to my prior post.

    If God did not love you before you accepted Christ as you saviour, how was it that you became saved? Did you find God or did you respond to the promptings of the Holy Spirit? Was God beckoning you to come to Him while you were yet in sin? Or, was it more like Dorothy finally finding the Great Oz on her own? If it was God pressing on your conscience, why would He even bother if He did not love you?
  • DNelson
    Hey all, one more word from me. I don’t think anyone is implying that God does not love sinners. The point is that he loves them though they are His enemies. They are not automatically His children simply because they are loved. Simple Mann is right in his consideration of those verses he quoted. Many in the church have taken the idea that “God is love” and reduced it to “God is only love.” The Shack paints this same one-dimensionalized picture of God. The Shack presents a soft God who chuckles at her rebellious “children” as just kids blowing off steam; just “fizz and vinegar,” she says. Scripture portrays a much more serious view of sin and God’s attitude toward it. Papa says that evil is simply the absence of good, and implies that hell, therefore, is simply the absence of God. The Jesus of the Bible, however, depicts a much more disturbing view of hell. Jesus told us to fear Him who has the power to throw us into hell. There is no real fear of God portrayed in this book. God is personified as a jolly Aunt Jemima type who is more of a peer than anything else. It is disappointing to see this view of God as our “big buddy in the sky” perpetuated in Christian writing. Or one might get the impression that God is a like a puppy, just waiting for us to call his name so that he run to us and show us how much he wants to please us. It’s a very human-centered perspective of God.

    Christians would do well to “Consider the kindness and severity of God. (Romans 11:22)” In our day and age, we are hard-pressed to find a Christian who would admit God has a stern side. We don’t like to think about God’s severity because, frankly, it flies in the face of how we would like God to be, and what many of us have been taught that He is. We may even consider that view of God as a little outdated, set forth by folks who didn’t really understand the Bible. I think this perception of God is a backlash against the times in the past when people focused so much on God’s sternness that they had no joy or were downright mean. We need to get back to a balanced, biblically accurate view of God.

    I think of Francis Schaeffer, who was all about believers developing such a strong Christian worldview that they could take a work of art (such as the Shack) and be able to dissect it into the parts that were truthful (i.e. lined up with orthodox Christian doctrine) and the parts where it fell short of Truth. Most of this book’s critics that I’ve read are attempting to do that. They are not saying that there is nothing positive about the book. The Shack is popular for a reason. Clearly, it is striking a chord with a large number of people who may be dealing with issues such as Mack. God is, no doubt, using this book to reach some. We cannot dismiss the book wholesale. But the critics are pointing out that the book has some places where Truth is perhaps skewed. And you know what? We need to be listening. These people play an important role in the Kingdom. This is the body principle at work. Instead of poo-pooing these people as being heresy hunters and fault-finders, we need to consider what is being said.

    Truth and love are not enemies. We must figure out how to love without compromising Truth. William P. Young himself, quoted Jean Jacques Rousseau at the beginning of one of the chapters that said, “Falsehood has an infinity of combinations, but truth has only one mode of being.” Like it or not, Christianity claims to be absolute Truth. We cannot compromise by letting falsehoods insidiously slide through – especially in the case of a novel that is having such an impact on the church. Let’s praise this book where it deserves to be praised (and there is much to be), but let’s admit and bring to light the areas where it falls short of orthodoxy and presents a blurred version of God and salvation.

    Keep the faith,

    DNelson
  • Mike
    DNelson,

    You raise very good points and I don't really disagree with the core of what you are saying.

    However, I do have to disagree about the genesis of this discussion on love. It started when SimpleMann wrote early on: "How do you reconcile your belief that God loves everyone without exception, regardless of what they have done with Scripture? It is only those whom Christ has called and exchange His righteousness for their sin that the Father looks on with love. Those unredeemed, unregenerate, and unrepentant sinners are judged, and unless you have completely misunderstood or disregarded the truth of God’s wrath, then your statement has no scriptural basis."

    I think quite clearly SimpleMann is not only implying but stating directly that God does not love sinners. It seems you would disagree with that position as I think the vast majority of Christians would. That's why I found his statement in that regard so astonishing.

    I never stated at any time that The Shack was perfect nor that it stated perfect theology. In reality, I don't think any human author can reach that level. However, I am quite surprised that people would call it heresy, dangerous and subversive. That view does not square with scripture either and is unnecessarily harsh on a subject that God wants us to fully comprehend - his love and reconciliation. Yes, judgment of the wicked is a feature of God. However, I would challenge you to count the number of times the word "love" and its synonyms are used in the NT vs. wrath and judgment. I could be wrong but my guess is that love overwhelms judgment.

    My view is really more along the lines of Ben Witherington, who after a long critique of the book, wrote: "I am thankful for this novel, and its strong stress on the relational and deeply personal nature of our God. I am equally thankful for the message that God is much greater than we could ever think or imagine. I like as well the emphasis on love and freedom, rightly understood, as well as its admission that not all roads lead to God, for Jesus is the way. But on its next lap around the revising track, and before it goes into somebody’s movie, it needs to make a pit stop for some more theological tune ups. "

    Let me ask you, in you everyday walk with Christ, do you focus on your relationship with him, his overwhelming love for you and your love for him, or your concern that if you don't do "what's right", you could go to hell? Personally, although I occasionally have thoughts about the latter, it is when I focus on the former that I grow in intimacy and relationship with God, which is what He calls us to do. It's a matter of emphasis. Could Young have emphasized hell and damnation more? Certainly he could have. However, based on what I've read about his life, it wasn't God's wrath that saved him from the pit of despair and depression but His infinite love. That's what he wanted to convey to his children. That compelling message is an accurate view of God's relationship with man, and the way he chose to convey that message, in my opinion, does nothing to lead others away from Christ as the only way to God nor to an incorrect view of God.
  • @Mike, you wrote: Before responding in any detail, I would like to hear how you reconcile the verses in John and Romans I quoted previously with your views about God’s love, specifically, your view that God does not love us until we become saved.

    Once again you have again misconstrued everything I have written by continuing to assert that my position is "God does not love us until we become saved" when I have said nothing of the sort. Please read what I have written more carefully.

    I "reconcile" the verses you quoted from John (3:16) and Romans (6:6-11) that demonstrate God's love by reading them in context with the rest of what is written in John and in Romans. In fact, I included Romans 9:10-15, John 14:22-24, John 15:5-6, Matthew 7:15-23, Matthew 13:24-30,37-42,47-50, 1 John 1:5-10, 2 Peter 2:1-22, Galatians 5:19-21. These are not words that I have written.

    Can you explain God's love for Pharaoh? Or the Egyptians? And what about the Philistines? How about the Baal-worshipers? And the wicked people in the time of Noah? What of those who defile His name, and who hate His Son? What of those who live for their own glory, for their lusts, for the world? Who worship false gods and idols? If He loves all of these so much, then why are they judged? Why does His wrath sit upon them? And why are they cast into Hell? Why are they not reconciled to Him through His Son? Indeed, if God loves all unequivocally, why did Jesus even need to die to atone for sin?

    He chooses some for salvation and passes others by. I do not understand this, but it is right there in Scripture. Far be it from me argue with God. A.W. Pink wrote in his book, The Sovereignty of God, "God loves whom He chooses. He does not love everybody." This is obviously completely foreign to you, but it is not a novel concept, for it is imminently revealed in Scripture. I am surprised it is so repulsive to you.

    "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." (John 3:36)

    In Christ,
    Simple Mann
  • @Mike (again) - this is becoming tiresome...

    You wrote: I think quite clearly SimpleMann is not only implying but stating directly that God does not love sinners. It seems you would disagree with that position as I think the vast majority of Christians would. That’s why I found his statement in that regard so astonishing.

    Once again, that is not at all what I said or implied. For what it's worth, I do not agree with your rendition of what I said, either. But it's not what I actually said.

    Guess what? We are ALL sinners.

    Rom 3:10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
    Rom 3:11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
    Rom 3:12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."


    Again, we are ALL sinners. But we are *not* ALL saved by grace. We are not all regenerate, new creations in Christ. We are not all justified. We do not earn our salvation because of anything we can accomplish and we are not justified because there is anything within us that gives us special merit. We are all of us unworthy, all of us sinners. But God does NOT save all. I agree completely with Paul who wrote, "While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." However, I do not believe that Christ died for all.

    And as for the heretical elements in the shack, I read just a few pages around page 120 or so last night, and while much of what was said during the theological discussions was sound, there were little trojan horse statements that clearly contradict Scripture. Papa was surprised by a question regarding authority (God must not be omniscient), stated that Creation did not really turn out as intended (must not be omnipotent either), and religious and political institutions were completely shunned (which includes the Church our Savior died for).

    And despite the common objection that the shack is a work of fiction and not theology, the vast majority of conversations in the shack revolve around theological discussions dealing with the nature of God. The problem, as some of us have pointed out, is that while they often contain a fair amount of truth, there are far too often elements intertwined with that truth that are completely antithetical to Scripture. As I said once already, it just takes a little bit of arsenic an otherwise terrific meal...

    In Christ,
    Simple Mann
  • DNelson
    Mike,

    Good word. Ben Witherington hit the nail on the head.

    DNelson
  • Mike
    Simple Mann,

    I'm sorry for being so dense. Now I understand what you are saying. I didn't realize until your last post that you are a Calvinist and believe in predestination.

    Now, not by way of judgment, but just by way of observation, it is most interesting that you find serious fault with The Shack as being unBiblical while at the same time holding to a particular belief which many in the Church condemn as heresy.

    Now that I understand your belief framework, I understand why you find The Shack so objectionable. Needless to say, predesination is not a concept that has wide acceptance as correct doctrine. Since I don't want to launch into a huge debate over that subject in this context, I'll call it quits here.
  • Mike,

    I searched the posts above and the only mention of predestination I see is yours. Of all the reviews I've read I have not seen an objection relating to predestination. Besides, all Christians believe in predestination. The Bible teaches it.

    Sorry I haven't really been back to these comments yet. I hope to catch up soon!

    Mark
  • Mike,

    Funny that you reject something that is clearly taught in Scripture as heresy, yet embrace and defend the shack so vehemently.

    There is absolutely no question about the fact that the Word of God teaches the doctrine of predestination. It is taught throughout the Scriptures and clearly stated in numerous passages of Inspiration:

    Matt. 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

    Rom. 8:29,30 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

    Eph. 1:3, 6, 11 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

    2 Tim. 1:9-10 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

    2 Thess. 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth

    1 Pet. 1:1,2 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
    Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

    John 6:37;17:2-24 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out...As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
    For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

    Rev. 13:8; 17:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world... The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

    Dan. 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

    1 Thess. 5:9,10a For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
    Who died for us...


    Obviously, these do not jibe with the teachings in the shack. As for me, I will trust in Scripture.

    In Christ,
    Simple Mann
  • @DNelson - you wrote: Truth and love are not enemies. We must figure out how to love without compromising Truth. William P. Young himself, quoted Jean Jacques Rousseau at the beginning of one of the chapters that said, “Falsehood has an infinity of combinations, but truth has only one mode of being.” Like it or not, Christianity claims to be absolute Truth. We cannot compromise by letting falsehoods insidiously slide through – especially in the case of a novel that is having such an impact on the church. Let’s praise this book where it deserves to be praised (and there is much to be), but let’s admit and bring to light the areas where it falls short of orthodoxy and presents a blurred version of God and salvation.

    You make an excellent point. I thought one of the most interesting statements in the book (in my opinion) was on page 123, where Sarayu (Young's interpretation of the Holy Spirit) warns: “Don’t confuse adaptation with intention, or seduction for reality.”

    In Christ,
    Simple Mann
  • oneal
    I recommend this book. It's not heresy. It's a fictional piece of work that helps a man struggling with something unbearable and impossible to understand. I've read through all the comments above and think the point gets missed in this novel by many readers. More than likely, only those who have suffered a tremendous loss (like our lead character) can relate to these feelings and questions. In the end, the author is challenging the preconceived ideas of what God thinks of creation and how we are to make sense of the chaos we live in. Much can be taken from this book that will help us in our understanding of God's grace and love towards creation. This isn't the full picture of who He is. Neither is any other piece of literature. In fact, the Bible doesn't fully grasp God in His entirety... partially because we are limited in our understading, but also because words cannot truly describe Him anyway. Beauty, music, life... these all give a glimpse of who He is, but we'll never really get it until we reach eternity.

    Before I get bombarded with anything, let me state that there is no better place to find out who God is than in the Bible. It is the final word on all theological debate regarding this book, but it's also important to step back and rethink and challenge the ideas of who we think God really is. Sometimes we put Him in a box. Sometimes we are so convinced we have Him figured out that we won't listen to anyone or anything that challenges our ideas. This book may make you cringe at times, but each of us must run these feelings and thoughts through the filter of God's Word (which is exactly what I see happening through these posts!)

    Final thought: God loves an honest question... and that's what is great about this book. Here we are, talking about Him and learning from each other. But let's remember one very important thing... we are all lacking in our understanding of God... let's not get too boastful and proud of the few things that God may have gracefully revealed to us about who He really is, and in love and respect discuss what we have learned and believe as we each "work out our own salvation." God is using this book to reach into the hearts of people... don't discount that, even if there are some mistakes. When someone says they are reading this book, rather than talking negatively about the book, why not use it as an opportunity to delve into a deep discussion with a fellow searcher of the truth. Perhaps you will have some answers, or perhaps they will. Whether they are a believer in Christ or not, this book is creating opportinities to know and understand God more and the relationship He desires with creation.
  • Mike
    John Mark wrote: "I searched the posts above and the only mention of predestination I see is yours. Of all the reviews I’ve read I have not seen an objection relating to predestination. Besides, all Christians believe in predestination. The Bible teaches it."

    It is clear that SimpleMann, from what he was saying, is a Calvinist. He didn't use the term predestination, but his comments were, in retrospect, Calvinist.

    If you mean that all Christians believe in predestination as that word is used as a shorthand for Calvinism, then no, all Christians do not believe in it. At present, Calvinism is believed by a minority of Christians.
  • Mike
    Simple Mann,

    You wrote: "Funny that you reject something that is clearly taught in Scripture as heresy, yet embrace and defend the shack so vehemently."

    You're still not reading carefully. I didn't say that I thought Calvinism was heresy; I said that many in the Church condemn it as heresy. That is not an opinion, but it simply a statement of fact. I would not go so far as to call it heresy. I would simply say that it is not scripturally sound and that it seriously denies the atonement work of Jesus Christ.

    You wrote: "There is absolutely no question about the fact that the Word of God teaches the doctrine of predestination." If you're meaning is that the Bible teaches predistination as forwarded by Calvinism, then I strongly disagree. However, since I don't know how you're using the term, I cannot comment further.

    I'm glad you trust in scripture. So do I.
  • abclay
    @mike

    Calvinism denies the atoning work of Christ? It is my understanding that Calvinism actually champions the effectiveness of the atonement, thereby affirming an atonement that actually accomplishes its intended purpose which is to save all those who will believe?

    To believe otherwise of the atoning work of Christ, in my estimation anyways, would be to say that the atonement didn't save anyone.

    of course, I could be wrong...

    Grace and Peace...

    ABClay
  • Mike
    AB,

    My understanding of Calvinism is that God decided before the creation of the world which humans would be selected for salvation and which would not. In other words, God chose to save some and to condemn others to hell on his own without any free will choice of the individual being involved. By actively condemning people to hell without their choice being involved and without even a chance to accept Christ, to me, denies or at the least denigrates the atoning work of Christ.
  • ABClay
    Bro. Mike,

    I think I see the problem with your understanding of Calvinism. You said:
    By actively condemning people to hell without their choice being involved and without even a chance to accept Christ

    Historically, Calvinists believe that all those who want to come to Christ can come, and anyone who comes won't be turned away....yes..I am sure I have read that somewhere before.

    I think that your misunderstanding doesn't lie in the biblical atonement or the election of God, it lies in the nature of mankind.

    I will affirm free will, I think that all men have free will. Proof being that you nor I have ever done anything that we didn't want to do.

    The way that Calvinists see the will is different than the way that others see it. We see the will as bound to the nature that dictates its choices and this nature is at enmity with God (Romans 3, Romans 8:6-8, Ephesians 2:1-3, etc...). This is why regeneration is so important. Except a man be "born again" he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. All those who are born, not of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God will have a new nature, be a new creation. They will understand those things that are spiritually discerned.
    So, anybody that wants to be saved can be saved, problem is that natural man doesn't want the God of the bible. Therefore, we are to preach the gospel to all people, rely on the power of the gospel (for it is the power of God unto salvation), allowing the Holy Spirit to draw all those who are elect to Christ, and give God all of the glory.

    Grace and peace...

    ABClay
  • ABClay
    ...and if I can comment on Bro. Simple Mann's love of God that you seem to have a problem with...

    He quoted Pink, who denies that God loves any of those whom He did not elect. I cannot fault this belief but I tend to believe that God does love everyone, but His redeeming love, a different type of love (a greater love, if you will), is reserved only for those whom He elected. At the same time, I don't deny that God hates those who sin. How can God love and hate at the same time? Well...He's God.

    Grace and Peace...

    ABClay
  • ABClay
    Mike,

    You also wrote:
    By actively condemning people to hell without their choice being involved and without even a chance to accept Christ

    What about Judas? He is referred to with many names, not the least of which is the "son of perdition". Did God condemn him to hell?
    Let me ask it another way... In your economy of God's nature, does God know everything? I will assume that you answer in the affirmative, then my follow up question will be: Why does God create them knowing that they will not choose to believe?
    These are questions that neither you nor I can escape, only my answer to these questions is simply: To bring praise and glory to Himself. How do you answer this question?

    Grace and Peace...

    ABClay
  • Mike
    AB,

    You wrote: "Historically, Calvinists believe that all those who want to come to Christ can come, and anyone who comes won’t be turned away….yes..I am sure I have read that somewhere before. ... So, anybody that wants to be saved can be saved ..."

    Here is what I obtained from a Calvinist site: "Unconditional Election is the doctrine which states that God chose those whom he was pleased to bring to a knowledge of himself, not based upon any merit shown by the object of his grace and not based upon his looking forward to discover who would "accept" the offer of the gospel. God has elected, based solely upon the counsel of his own will, some for glory and others for damnation (Romans 9:15,21). He has done this act before the foundations of the world (Ephesians 1:4-8)."

    And this from John Piper's website on Calvinism: "Election refers to God's choosing whom to save. It is unconditional in that there is no condition man must meet before God chooses to save him. Man is dead in trespasses and sins. So there is no condition he can meet before God chooses to save him from his deadness. ... We really do not understand mercy if we think that we can initiate it by our own will or effort. We are hopelessly bound in the darkness of sin. If we are going to be saved, God will have to unconditionally take the initiative in our heart and irresistibly make us willing to submit to him. (See Romans 11:7.)"

    I think these quotes make clear that your understanding of Calvinism is not accurate. I agree with what you said, but what you said does not agree with Calvinism.

    Mike
  • ABClay
    Bro. Mike,

    I don't think you read all of what I wrote. Anybody that wants to come can come.
  • Mike
    AB,

    Brother, I'm not following you. Are you saying that anyone whom God has not chosen before the foundation of the world will not WANT to come to Him and all those whom He has chosen will want to come to Him?
  • ABClay
    Yes, that is historical Calvinism as I understand it with one point of note to what you said. All those whom He has chosen will want to come to Him only after they have 1)heard the gospel, 2)regenerated by the Holy Spirit, 3)graced with saving faith from God.

    To the best of my understanding, these three happen so close together that they are virtually indistinguishable, but they happen in this order. Your salvific experience may bear this out as well.

    Therefore, any Calvinist who doesn't see the importance of sharing the gospel with all is wrong in my estimation.

    Grace and Peace...
  • @Mike -

    There was a long period of history when the church was in darkness, hijacked by people who sought to fill their own insatiable appetites for money and power, people who did not thirst and hunger for righteousness. Many of the truths that were foundational to the early church lay dormant and hidden for many long, dark years. The doctrines of grace, the gospel of Jesus, that brought peace to men’s souls, were lost for a time as tyrannical systems of men sucked the life out of the people in the church by denying them God’s Word.

    There is no doubt that God brought about the Reformation, using (as He always has) imperfect men who, despite their flaws and imperfections, held fast to Him and sought first His Kingdom and His glory with all their strength. Men like Huss, Luther, Tyndale, Calvin, Henry, Owen, and the Puritans that followed these men recovered Biblical truths that had been lost and in their rediscovery treasured them all the more. These men were often scorned, ridiculed, imprisoned, beaten, and even put to death for their belief in these doctrines upon which the all of the legitimate Protestant faiths have their roots.

    These men loved God’s Word. They loved Jesus. The Cross was more than a “groovy tattoo”, wall adornment, or piece of jewelry – it was their heart. It was the very center of their understanding, and as they searched the Scriptures daily like Bereans, pouring over God’s Word and rejoicing at the timeless truths they were rediscovering anew, they saw the beauty, the wisdom, and the power of God’s Word. God’s Word was not trivial, nor something to be enjoyed only occasionally; it was their manna, their daily bread. It was the sustenance of life.

    Should we not pay some homage to our spiritual ancestors, these Christian soldiers of the Reformation, who rescued the truths that had been lost for centuries that we might enjoy the fruits of their labor even today? Should we not be ever thankful for the sound doctrine and the translations even into our own language, that we can sit down and read a Bible in our own living room, trusting that what we are reading is faithful to the original texts? Knowing how faithfully and passionately they searched the Scriptures, should we perhaps consider the fruits of their labors worthwhile?

    Yet, there are some that would say that the five solas, the doctrines of grace, and the wisdom and depth of the riches our Puritan elders have gone and mined before us are worthless to us today. There are some today who have a fraction of their faith and their devotion to the Scriptures, and who with pride in their hearts think they are so much further along in understanding the Word of God, and who refuse to travel the sound paths walked by the giants who have gone before us. There are those who would reject the doctrines of grace without even truly understanding them because they are not as fashionable or easy to put on as more modern perspectives. In an air-conditioned, fast-food, satellite-network society like ours, where apostasy in the church is as common as sex and violence on the TV, is it any wonder that there is little room for anything that may prick our conscience or challenge our comfort?

    When men held a high view of Scripture, there was a high view of the doctrines of grace. There was a high view of the church. And there was a high view of God. Not surprisingly, there was a low view of man, and a very real understanding of the total depravity of his heart. Under such conditions, the true Church flourished, and God was glorified.

    Today, we see a low view of Scripture, a low view of doctrines long-esteemed and profitable; a low view of the church and a low view of God. And not surprisingly, there is a high view of man, and a total denial of the utter depravity of his heart. Under such conditions, apostasy flourishes; man makes himself bigger than he ought, and his God he makes too small.

    We should tremble in fear with reverence for the Lord. We should take His commands and His promises more seriously. His judgment cometh. There have been far too many times recorded in His Word to ignore the warnings. God gives grace to the humble, but He opposes the proud. He is loving and patient and kind. At the same time He is also just, and His wrath burns against the sons of disobedience. He sends His prophets to His people and gives them every opportunity to repent. Yet, so often we see a foolish, stiff-necked people who are too indifferent, too careless and too proud to repent.

    We live in a time when true fear and reverence for God’s mighty power and strength have waned even as man’s pride and his faith in his own ability has waxed. Many profess with their mouths but deny with their lives. The wisdom of our forefathers falls on deaf ears even as they read their Bibles with their eyes shut, and more often than not with the Bible shut, too.

    May God have mercy on us.
  • sonny
    Mike,

    Great responses! AB shouldn't fault you for not sharing his thoughts on predestination. Since you are predestined, can you really help it? Or maybe he can't help it? God is still God in both cases. (-:

    The Shack does need some tweaking to be truly (traditionally) orthodox. However I found it uplifting and challenging.
  • abclay
    @Sonny,
    It saddens me that you feel this is some sort of fight that needs a cheerleader. I would, however, encourage you to read our conversation again. I don't fault my brother one iota for his beliefs (I don't know where you got this idea), for I was once where he was and am acutely aware of the struggles involved in apprehending the doctrines of grace.

    @ Bro. Mike,
    Why do you believe God creates people whom He knows will not believe? We can't stick our heads in the sand and pretend that we never ponder this question. What answer does your theology bear out for this? Just curious, not trying to pick a fight here Sonny.

    ABClay
  • sonny
    AB,

    I didn't mean to encourage fighting by "cheering" any side. I apologize.

    One of the things the Shack challenged me in was my limiting of God with either or arguments. I think that if the doctrine of the Trinity teaches us anything is that God is beyond us. I agree that scripture reveals truths that we can, limited though our finite brains are, understand. however, either or arguments don't always work with the God. How can there be one God of three persons? But I believe this is how scripture presents God but I cannot honestly grasp it.

    God is good. I believe this by faith. I cannot reconcile why a loving God (I believe this with all my ability) would create people to eternally punish them for lack of faith that God alone can impart. That is not to say that God doesn't do this, just that I have trouble reconciling this with a loving good God. So I choose to suspend my judgment of God and my claim to understand freewill vs predestination. If my suspension of definite conclusions makes me a heretic so be it.

    I'm reminded of Job 40:2 "Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him?
    Let him who accuses God answer him!"

    and 7 "Brace yourself like a man;
    I will question you,
    and you shall answer me.

    8 "Would you discredit my justice?
    Would you condemn me to justify yourself?

    I think I get the rhetorical meaning in these questions. My reply is "no thank you."

    I'm not all that smart, seriously. So with my limited intellect I find it amusing when others seem so sure especially when God loving honest intelligent people come to opposite conclusions.

    My response was my attempt (probably inappropriate) to bring humor to a subject that is seriously mind boggling to me.

    No offense intended. Grace and peace.

    sonny
  • abclay
    @ Sonny
    First off, let me apologize if I was a bit reactionary regards your comment before. I appreciate your response and can sympathize with what you feel is simply a conundrum. Certainly there are things regards God that are past finding out and the complexities of the Trinity are included in these but not the truth of the doctrine itself. I think that the doctrine of God's election is much like the doctrine of the trinity in this way.

    I believe in the sovereignty of God but this does not make me one who believes that God is not good, nor loving, nor kind.

    You said:
    I cannot reconcile why a loving God (I believe this with all my ability) would create people to eternally punish them for lack of faith that God alone can impart.

    I don't believe that God punishes people for a lack of faith that He alone can impart. God punishes people for sinning against His holiness. There is no injustice with God. Some people get mercy and grace, other people get justice. All people are condemned for being sinners, not for a lack of faith. The natural man is perfectly happy to stay in the "burning house"; he enjoys his sin and does not want to turn to God. Think back, we knew full well God's just sentence, that the punishment for sin was death, and we not only sinned, but even applauded others who sinned as well. Why would God stoop down to show mercy to even one of us?
    When you say that you cannot reconcile this, it is almost as if you agree that this is taught in scripture. I cannot find an explicit statement on God's election and man's responsibility to believe but I know that God is the creator, and all things are from Him, through Him, and to Him. I know that He knows the end from the beginning therefore He is omniscient. The closest thing that I can find in the scripture that relates the omniscience of God with His election and reprobation of mankind is found in Romans 9.
    So then it does not depend on human will or effort, but on God who shows mercy. For the scripture tells Pharaoh: For this reason I raised you up: so that I may display My power in you, and that My name may be proclaimed in all the earth. So then, He shows mercy to whom He wills, and He hardens whom He wills. You will say to me, therefore, "Why does He still find fault? For who can resist His will?" But who are you, man, who talks back to God?...has the potter no right over His clay, to make from the same lump one piece of pottery for honor and another for dishonor? And what if God, desiring to display His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience objects of wrath ready for destruction? And what if He did this to make know the riches of His glory on objects of mercy that He prepared beforehand for glory on us whom He also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

    I ask you now, since you brought up the doctrine of the Trinity, where is the doctrine of the Trinity explicitly taught? We believe it, not because of one specific verse, but because it is throughout the whole of scripture. We certainly cannot comprehend it, but we are held accountable for apprehending it. The same thing can be applied to the God-man Jesus Christ. Was He 100% God? Was He 100% man? The answer to these is "Yes" but how can one person be 200 percent of something? We cannot comprehend this, but we must take hold of this truth.
    I see the doctrine of reprobation the same way. God is the one who reconciles His election with man's responsibility to believe, not I.
    Brother, I would not label you a heretic for your belief. The most Godly man I know doesn't believe the way I do about this either. I would encourage you to take about an hour and read this. If nothing else, it will give you a better understanding of what Calvinists believe and the more people who properly understand what we believe, the more amicable the discussions throughout our community can be.
    Grace and Peace...
    ABClay
  • Mike
    AB,

    You wrote: "Why do you believe God creates people whom He knows will not believe? We can’t stick our heads in the sand and pretend that we never ponder this question. What answer does your theology bear out for this? Just curious, not trying to pick a fight here Sonny."

    There is a wonderful, detailed debate about this between atheists and Dr. William Craig that explores that very question. I would encourage you to read those debates. You will likely disagree with Dr. Craig's conclusions, however, because he focuses on man's free will. Dr. Craig's point is that God, being all good and just, could not establish an unjust framework.

    To say that God intentionally decided from the beginning of time to create people whom he planned from the start to throw into the burning lake of hell and consign to eternal damnation is to transform God into a malevolent tyrant and sadist. That is simply not the God depicted by the Bible.

    To answer your question, God created humans, who He knew would not all believe and therefore be destined for hell, because love that is commanded and forced is no love at all. Were man not to have the will to choose to accept or reject God, then man would be simply a robot, a machine, programmed to behave in response to stimuli. I would not want children like that and God didn't want a relationship with his creation like that either. Therefore, in order to create man in his image, who would willingly enter into a relationship of love with Him, He had to imbue man with freedom to choose. It is man's rejection of God, not God's rejection of man, that incurs the wrath and etnernal damnation judgment from God.

    In my morning reading in Timothy, I came across the verse that says that Christ came to save all men.

    Peace,

    Mike
  • I have read many of the review on the Shack and I find a common thread running through all who want to criticize it. They all have a lack of experiential understanding of the Love of God. The word experiential scares most them because they have yet to have close encounter with the love of the Father in this way. Most all of the critics’ miss the entire point of the story. The fact that they are trying to divide words so closely and look for the potential flaws tells me once again they are missing the whole point of the book. The point of the book is give humanity a closer look at what Gods love is really like. Its literary style is much like a parable in scripture. It’s designed to make the point, that most don’t really understand, how much Gods loves them. I find also that one of the common threads of the critics is that many seem to be of the Reformed theology. Reformed theology loves to operate out of a life style of fearing God, rather than living a life of knowing that you’re loved by God. When you really understand and begin to live in the love of God, there is nothing to fear. Perfect love cast out all fear. Love is a much more powerful force than any fear. Why? Because God is love.
  • Sorry I forgot to check the "notity me of followup comments via e-mail on the first comment sent in. Hope to hear from some of you. Blessings. Jeff
  • Jeff,

    If you would have read my testimony you'd see that I have had an experiential encounter with God.

    See, I had "experiences" with "god" while in the RLDS church. Those experiences were grounded in me not God.

    In the appendix of The Shack the author states that he wants to present people with an accurate understanding of God's character, etc. In a movie about the book even. Well, this is the main problem. It's not accurate.

    Thanks,

    Mark
  • Hi Mark,

    Sorry for the delay in getting back to you, I had trouble finding this web site again. I read your testimony today and I am very happy to see that you have accepted Christ into your life. Receiving Christ is always a wonderful experience with God. However, this is not the experience I or the Shack is taking about. After our salvation we all begin this journey of coming to know the Father through Jesus. Our salvation experience is not the end of our experience's in God revealing his love to us. Its the starting point. I had been saved for almost 20 years, been involved in ministry, and preached about the love of God before I had a close encounter with the Father that that rocked my world. Receiving a fresh revelation of the love of Father, had changed everything in my world. For the last five years I have traveled the U.S. and severl other countries to share about the love of the Father. We have found Christians very hungry to know more of the love of God in their lives. Its transforming people into the kind of Christians that God is looking for. Those that will learn to receive His love and then give it away. There is no end to experienceing His love in greater measure as we let Him renew our minds with the word. But that renewing isn't just about learning His word, its about getting to know the author of the word. Why? Because he wants to show us the Father and His love. This is not about our love for people, it's about Gods love flowing through us to other people. In order for that to happen we must let Him love us experientially. Look forward to hearing more from you.

    In the Father's love, Jeff
  • As a Christian, I am not disappointed in The Shack. I am horrified. The fact that some of my Christian friends find value in the book, shows me one thing: They do not know their bibles. We must be like the early Bereans, who checked out everything told them by the Apostle Paul, to be sure they were hearing truth.
  • Dawn
    I've read the book and I must admit I struggle with. I liked it. But I also want to stay true to the Word of God. I didn't want to accept what the book said because it made me feel good. I came to the reviews to see what other Christians are saying and I find that we are attacking each other. I find the backbiting that is going on disheartening. Why are we doing this to our brothers and sisters? Have we (me included) really read the Book that we are beating each other upside the head with? I see both sides using the Word of God to beat each other up. Why?

    I am desperate for a relational God. This book has thrown me head long into my Bible. Which is something that hasn't happened in a long time. I need my Father, His Son and His Spirit. I NEED it.

    As far as "Willie" is concerned. I appreciate what he has tried to do to share his walk with his family. I don't believe he was being malicious. It may be true that he is errant in some of his theology. But you are automatically assuming he did it on purpose. Many, if not all of us our errant in one way or another.

    Maybe this book will help point others to God. But anytime a book that is not the Living Word of God takes the place in someones Walk that the Bible should have it has the wrong place. Just like Lewis' Narnia or Screwtape letters or Mere Christianity have pointed me back to God, so has the Shack. I do not look for my answers from those books, but am nudged back to the only Book that has the Answer. Please remember that we are called to love each other. If we are all followers of Christ, than we really should stop tearing each other apart and accusing each other of not believing. Can't we have a discussion without it turning into one of the Presidential Debates where all we do is tear the other one apart?
  • I appreciate your comments re: The Shack.

    Dawn, to use discernment when it comes to biblical doctrine is not "tearing one another apart." Differences of opinion in the body of Christ are expected, but when a book presents error about something so vital as the Godhead, then we must speak up.
    Some readers may not know their bibles at all, and take The Shack as doctrinal truth.

    Karen Strand

    Read the first chapter of my book!
    www.karenstrand.com/book.htm
  • Karen,

    Well said. I am going to try and put a post together addressing Dawn's concern.

    Many Christians seem to have difficulty understanding discernment and accountability, etc.

    Mark
  • Dawn
    You have missed my point. I'm not saying that accountability is bad. But on this and other reviews/boards I have seen comments such as "Religious people will not accept this book, for they are still eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Those who eat from the tree of life will see the fruits." And I have seen comments that say if you liked the book you weren't a believer. I don't see these has helpful. I liked the book, or maybe the idea of the book. But I struggle with the theology of it. That is why I am now seeking out the truth through scripture. And why I am looking to see what other believers, who may have a better grasp of the scriptures are saying. All I was trying to say before is as we correct one another, can we do it in love? It wasn't meant as an attack on anyone but as a gentle reminder that we are to speak to each other in love. I know that if I am verbally attacked by someone I am less likely to listen to what that person has to say, even if they are correct.
  • Mike
    Karen,

    So, you've got the Godhead figured out, huh? In that case, could you answer some questions for me? Could you describe in detail what a "spirit" is as it relates to God the Father? Why did God have certain physical features when He allowed Moses to see Him? Was Jesus only spirit before he became man? If the Father and Jesus are both eternal, why does Jesus refer to God as Father? Is Jesus spirit now or still fully human/fully God, or has he transformed into a different state of being? Is the Holy Spirit the same type of spirit as the Father? If the Father and Jesus are one, how did the Father forsake Jesus while he was on the cross? Were they no longer one at that point? How does God's spirit actually inhabit the bodies of believers and yet remain a distinct being? What part of man is made in God's image?

    I've got a hundred more but that is enough for now. Since you've got a good handle on the Trinity, I would appreciate your insight into the questions.

    Mike
  • Mike,

    So, you’ve got the Godhead figured out, huh?


    Where did Karen say this?

    Do you think Karen is wrong? On what grounds?

    You seem to think that you know enough to know the Karen is wrong, but Karen doesn't know enough to know that Young's representation of the Trinity is wrong. How does this work?

    How do we know anything about God as revealed in the Bible?

    Mark
  • abclay
    @Mike

    "The Godhead is a three-flavor Jellybean"

    Now I haven't figured the Godhead out, but I know the aforementioned description of the Godhead is not correct based upon the revealed word of God.

    In my estimation, this is all Karen was saying and you should offer your apologies to her.

    Grace and Peace...

    ABClay
  • Mike
    John Mark and AB,

    It's interesting that you didn't require Karen to apologize to me for stating that I do not know my Bible. I've only been reading it for 30+ years but perhaps I'm just not discerning enough. Since I found value in the Shack, according to Karen: "shows me one thing: They do not know their bibles." Now, does that comport with fairness or are you simply supporting those with whom you happen to agree?

    Karen stated that the book "book presents error about something so vital as the Godhead." That implies to me that she has a good handle on the nature of the Godhead. That being the case, I wanted to ask her to answer some questions about God's nature.

    John Mark, I don't know if Karen is wrong or not. She only stated that the Shack is in grievous error about the nature of the God head. I think my questions are a fair exploration as to her depth of understanding of the Godhead.

    AB, I've heard the Trinity explained as an analogy to the three characteristics of H2O. Ice, water, and steam. Is that wrong? Is that heretical? How is a three flavor jelly bean much different. In that, there are 3 separate charateristics of one essence. The 3 flavors are each distinct, yet the whole is one. Now, does that fully explain the God head? Of course not, but it gives a different vantage point of trying to understand an enigma. You don't seriously mean to say that the Shack meant that God was actually a three flavor jellybean, do you? Assuming not, how would you describe three separate beings who are completely individual and separate yet one? Give me your best bibilically based answer. And, by the way, the questions I asked of Karen go to the heart of that issue.

    The Shack spoke of the Godhead in terms of Father, Son, and Spirit. Is that error? Beyond that, I'm curious about your answer to the above posed questions.

    Mike
  • abclay
    @ Bro. Mike,

    Karen said:
    Some readers may not know their bibles at all, and take The Shack as doctrinal truth.


    If you take the "Shack" as doctinal truth, then I agree with Karen that you don't know your bible very well.

    The properties of water analogy that is used to put the Godhead in terms that we can manage is not the same as saying "The Godhead IS water". This is a good analogy for our understanding but it's limitations must be noted.

    My statement was:
    The Godhead is a three-flavor Jellybean


    I didn't say the Godhead is like a three flavor jellybean.

    As to the terms that the "Shack" used to describe the Godhead, yes they are scriptural terms, but the relationship between them is what is unorthodox. Jim Jones spoke in biblical language, as does many other false teachers today...does that make them doctrinally sound? I submit that it doesn't. This is why Karen's point in her post is being defended.

    Grace and Peace...

    ABClay
  • Hi Mike,

    First, I didn't ask you to apologize. :) There's nothing wrong with healthy debate.

    That implies to me that she has a good handle on the nature of the Godhead. That being the case, I wanted to ask her to answer some questions about God’s nature.


    But you didn't ask questions about God's nature. You asked explicit and exact questions about how God has operated in certain situations.

    John Mark, I don’t know if Karen is wrong or not. She only stated that the Shack is in grievous error about the nature of the God head. I think my questions are a fair exploration as to her depth of understanding of the Godhead.


    I don't believe they are fair for reasons stated above. Understanding the nature of the Godhead vs. how the Godhead acts and reacts is not the same thing. For example, understanding that Jesus incarnate became Man doesn't mean we understand how He did this. However, we do know His nature as the God-Man.

    The criticisms of The Shack have to do with portraying God in a manner that He has not revealed Himself to us in Scripture. It's not us pretending we know everything about God.

    Mark
  • Mike
    AB,

    Do you read the Bible as literally as you do the Shack? I would maintain that Young was speaking in metaphors, but you apparently believe he was speaking literally.

    Is God a shepherd? Is He a rock? Is he a lion? Those are all descriptions of God in the Bible and they don't say "like".

    You said: "If you take the “Shack” as doctinal truth, then I agree with Karen that you don’t know your bible very well." You're mixing two different posts by Karen. The part I quoted was all in one post and in context. I hope you're not going to defend the comment she made about Christians who find value in the book not knowing their Bibles.

    Karen said that there was error about the Godhead. Other than your literal reading of the "jellybean" description, where is the error?

    Mike
  • Mike,
    For starters, anyone who says they totally understand the Trinity is full of baloney. However, the scriptures help us out:
    Jesus Christ: As preexistent, created everything
    (Col. 3:16) even had a hand in the creation of mankind (Gen. 1:26)
    God the Father: Sent Jesus to complete a "work"
    Jn. 17:4) which was to die on a Cross for our sin, and reconcile man to God. When He became incarnate to do that, is when He called God "Father." So, there we have the "Son" praying to the "Father."
    When you think "Holy Spirit," think of its literal meaning. Man has a spirit, but only God's Spirit is a Holy one. The Holy Spirit is one of the greatest mysteries. He has always been, yet when Jesus was resurrected He sent the Holy Spirit to indwell us, to teach us, to help us.
    Made in God's Image: No, He doesn't wear jeans and a tee-shirt. Here, we are talking personality, or personhood. Every emotion and feeling we experience, was known by God first. He is a Person. We are made in His Image.
    Why, since God is Spirit, did He have physical features when He revealed Himself to Moses?
    For Moses' sake. How could Moses relate to an ethereal being with no substance at all?
    What form is Jesus in, now? The answer has to do with what Jesus became at the incarnation. Fully human. Yet fully God. In this form, He went up to heaven after His resurrection (Acts 1:9) and in this form He remains. "Brothers, we do not know what we shall be, but when He appears we shall be like Him."
    We do best not to drive ourselves nuts trying to understand GOD. We are told that He is beyond our understanding, and His greatness is unsearchable. Just praise Him for revealing as much as he actually has, to us.
  • Tom Buzbee
    How can anyone ever learn anything if they do not read and discuss ideas they do and don't agree with? This book present a possible learning experience for so many, since it is being read by so many. It is not the end but a beginning for people who are searching. And from the sale of the book, plenty of people are searching! Please place some confidence into your own ability to think for your self!
  • Linda
    I am so sorry to see such accusatory comments. I have just completed the book today. I could hardly put it down. I was laughing and crying at the same time. It was such a sweet story. I think that if someone finds a way to have a more personal relationship with the Father, then it is a good thing. I know that may sound elementary, but we as a people are so quick to judge and say that is not the way to find a personal relationship with the Lord. Maybe because it is not "our" way. Excuse me if I am off base here, but who said we should ever tell anyone how to have a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ? I am sure that all God wants from us is all of us. How we get there.......well, that is up to each person individually. I personally was brought into a closer and richer place with my Father after reading this book. Thanks to the author, he put it in terms that this "old Christian woman" better understood. Believe me, I have been a Christian for almost all of my 60 years and I don't think I have ever read a book that was quite as inspiring, showing the love that I know my God has for me. I am not talking about or excluding the Bible. I am quite familiar with that as well. It is not fiction and The Shack is. But when this author put his feelings into a fictional setting, it was as real to my heart as anything.
    Blessings to all of you who have written your feelings.
    Linda
  • Mike
    Karen,

    Sorry for my delay in response.

    You state that "Every emotion and feeling we experience, was known by God first. He is a Person. We are made in His Image." Isn't that sacrilegious? Are you saying that God has experienced hate, rage, lust, and other sinful emotions man has?

    If God is a Spirit, how can he be a person? Yet, you also claim that God is an ethereal being with no substance at all. Where in scripture do you find support for that statement? This sounds like God is like a mist or ether that permeates all matter.

    You also state: "What form is Jesus in, now? The answer has to do with what Jesus became at the incarnation. Fully human. Yet fully God. In this form, He went up to heaven after His resurrection (Acts 1:9) and in this form He remains." That statement seems at odds with the transfiguration which Jesus allowed Peter, James and John to witness. He shone like the sun and his clothes became as white as light. Doesn't that foretell of what Jesus will really be like in heaven? If not, then what was happening there?

    I don't find anything that you've said which would show the grevous error about the nature of the Godhead as set forth in the Shack. In fact describing God as an ethereal being lacking substance sounds far more erroneous to me than the descriptions contained in the Shack.

    My intent here is really not to be critical but to make the point that trying to describe God is really difficult. Your original statement that the "book presents error about something so vital as the Godhead" appears extremely conclusory and unsupportable as demonstrated by your response to my questions. Unless you think it is sinful to even try to understand God, I fail to see where the error in the Shack is regarding the Godhead.

    Mike
  • abclay
    @mike
    Are you saying that lust, hate, and rage are sinful emotions? That's what it sounds like...

    Then Beer is sinful too? And sticks, because people get hit in the head by sticks? And how bout guns, because people get shot with guns?

    Is it not the objects of those emotions that makes them sinful? How bout this?

    I lust after the Word of God as a Deer lusts for the water in a brook? Isn't lust the same as desire? I can lust after a car and not be defiling myself sexually but breaking the coveting commandment.

    God hates the lover of violence...Is this sinful?

    just my .02

    Grace and peace...

    ABClay
  • abclay
    Personal relationship...Not to be a knit-picker but I found this helpful...Click here.

    Grace and Peace,

    ABClay
  • Mike
    AB,

    I agree that those emotions, in the abstract, are not necessarily sinful. I hate spinach, but that's not sinful. So, point taken. However, I was obviously using those emotions as they relate to other people. I thought that was the context of Karen's use as well. If instead she meant only to use those emotions as they relate to inanimate objects, then my questions as to that point are withdrawn.

    Mike
  • Vivien
    ABClay,

    In Christ there is no sin. The law was meant to bring us to Him, so we could live in Him and He in us. Being led by His Spirit. No longer trying to live in futility by our own efforts to obey the law. As if by our strength we ever could. When we keep our eyes on Jesus he leads ever deeper into the abundant life he promises. He has fulfilled the law. Because we cannot. Could not. Will not ever without him.
    This is the NEW COVENANT.
    All who come to him and accept him are given his spirit as a living breath within them. No longer are the intimate and direct revelations from him limited to the OT prophets. All can hear from him. The promised land - intimacy with Him in the inner sanctuary of His being. In Him.
    Intimacy with Him, eachother, and ourselves.
    All else has fallen away. And as he leads us, HE will transform our minds and regenerate our hearts so that we can love more fully each day. That has been my experience. Mindblowing and joyfilled to say the least.
    As far as releasing someone to him and forgiving the wound they have inflicted - well try it sometime. Deeply. And then watch when that person sees you again how they will look at you. There is wonder in their eyes as to how it is that you are not angry with them and do not retaliate. That is what I think God means. Why? Because then that person has the wide open field containing the option of allowing their heart to be softened and then reconciled to the Father through his mercy and grace and by the blood of Jesus Christ. By the mercy that you have now shown yourself by the grace of Christ who lives in you. And WOW, maybe even reconciled to you.
    Since, of course, Abba would have all people reconciled to him and to each other.
    that is not universalism. That is the heart of God. If anyone refuses to believe that, then that is of course their choice. And a choice worthy of great sorrow.
    God the Father is a loving father. Period.

    And there is no ambiguity in Christ's statement to us all. " Behold I have made all things new."
    Would you believe that?

    And to anyone else who believes that God predestined only a certain elect to be saved, well why don't you help him to speed up the process then and thro the scum more quickly into hell so we can get out of here quicker? Really unbelievable crap.

    I believe in a loving God who predestined all people to be saved by His plan in his son's final sacrifice. Whether we choose to believe and accept in our hearts what he has done and is doing, and will always do - - is another story.

    Love and respect,

    Vivien.
  • To Vivian: Well said.
  • ABClay
    Sister Vivian,

    Thank you for taking the time to write from your heart.

    I would like to comment and ask you a question. I agree with so much that you said that I really wanted to just say, Amen, but calling what is considered by many people to be orthodox Christianity "Really unbelievable crap" prompted me to respond.

    You asked me:
    And there is no ambiguity in Christ’s statement to us all. ” Behold I have made all things new.”
    Would you believe that?
    While technically, this is special revelation from God, I would encourage you to actually visit this passage in the context of Paul's words to the Church at Corinth. He is speaking (that would be Paul) and he says "if anyone is in Christ he is a new creation".
    You further write:
    I believe in a loving God who predestined all people to be saved by His plan in his son’s final sacrifice.
    A question for you. Did God predestine all of those adults and children who occupied Canaan when Joshua came to kill them to eternal life? Did Jesus die for them? Or the people who inhabited the earth during Noah's day who were completely destroyed by God's mighty hand of vengeance? Were they predestined by God to salvation?

    When we look at God as one dimensional (being love. Period), we fall a little short in our understanding of what a Mighty God we serve.

    I am not saying this to upset you (though it may), but we cannot fully worship God, in spirit and in truth, until we can worship Him for who He is, not who we want Him to be.

    You are free to believe as you wish about predestination, but the word predestined in the Bible, when speaking of people who are being saved, is always speaking of certain people.

    I believe that God is love, for how else could He save a wretched sinner like me?

    Grace and peace...

    ABClay
  • Vivien
    Hello ABClay,

    Thank you. "kill them to eternal life". ???

    wow. I am not upset. thanks for considering my feelings though. It was kind of you.

    Love is multidimensional. a full array, bouquet of colors shall we say.

    Yes I believe Jesus died for all mankind. That he would pick is beyond my comprehension according to how I know Him.

    How is it that you are so sure that He has predestined you? And not, say your coworker, or your mother, or father?

    How do you know what is in the heart of God towards those people and what was/is in their hearts towards him?

    News flash - Jesus was not invented 2000 years ago. He is timeless/ageless/has no beginning/no end.

    Are you still a wretched sinner?

    And moreover - are you afraid of losing ABC if you engage in the further mystery of DEFlay?

    I guess if we are still full of fear and punishment, we will look for justification of our own salvation. Hence, the self focus and the urgent need to point to who exactly may not be predestined in order to ensure justification of our own.

    Do you really know Him?

    Don't ask me. Ask Him yourself.

    Take care,

    Vivien.
  • Hi Vivien,

    There are a few things I don't really understand in your comment. Rather than causing more confusion I'll just ask you a question.

    Do you believe that no one goes to hell and that everyone has eternal life?

    Thanks,
    Mark
  • ABClay
    @ Vivien

    I apologize for my question to you being confusing. In regards to your comment:
    I believe in a loving God who predestined all people to be saved by His plan in his son’s final sacrifice.
    My question to you would have been better written: Did God predestine all those adults and children to eternal life that He killed in the flood in Noah's day? Did God predestine all those adults and children who occupied Canaan to eternal life only to have Joshua kill them?
    Furthermore, If Jesus came to do the will of the Father, (as He says He did) and Jesus died for these people (as you say), then it appears to me that Jesus' will does not match the will of the Father.
    Could you further explain your comment about flowers and how it relates to the other revealed attributes of God?
    You ask:
    How do you know what is in the heart of God towards those people and what was/is in their hearts towards him?

    Genesis 6:5-7
    When the LORD saw that man's wickedness was widespread on the earth and that every scheme his mind thought of was nothing but evil all the time, the LORD regretted that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. Then the LORD said, "I will wipe off the face of the earth: man, whom I created, together with the animals, creatures that crawl, and birds of the sky-- for I regret that I made them."
    Deuteronomy 7:1-10
    "When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess, and He drives out many nations before you...seven nations more numerous and powerful than you--and when the LORD your God delivers them over to you and you defeat them, you must completely destroy them. Make no treaty with them and show them no mercy. Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, because they will turn your sons away from Me to worship other gods. Then the LORD's anger will burn against you, and He will swiftly destroy you... For you are a holy people belonging to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you to be His own possession out of all the peoples on the face of the earth. "The LORD was devoted to you and chose you, not because you were more numerous than all peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples. But because the LORD loved you and kept the oath He swore to your fathers, He brought you out with a strong hand and redeemed you from the place of slavery, from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt. Know that Yahweh your God is God, the faithful God who keeps His gracious covenant loyalty for a thousand generations with those who love Him and keep His commands. But He directly pays back and destroys those who hate Him. He will not hesitate to directly pay back the one who hates Him.
    I don't know if there is a better way to answer that question than the answer that I gave.
    You also asked:
    Are you still a wretched sinner?

    Answer: Absolutely
    1 John 1:8
    If we say, "We have no sin," we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
    Thank God for grace...
    I don't know what DEFlay means, even did a google search for it and couldn't figure it out.
    I have answered your questions, could you answer mine?
    Again I say we cannot actually worship God in spirit and in truth until we worship Him for who He has revealed Himself to be, not who we want Him to be.
    Grace and Peace...
    ABClay
  • Vivien
    Hi ABClay,
    I am not going to answer your questions. Best you take them to God, who really knows the answers.

    However, I thought you indicated above prior that "if anyone is in Christ he is a new creation." Somehow this doesn't match up with wretched sinner.
    sorry.
    He has either cleaned you up or he hasn't.

    Take care,

    Vivien.
  • Vivien,

    How about my question? :)

    Mark
  • Vivien
    Hi Mark,

    Thanks for asking. You really need to read what I have said more carefully.
    It is so easy to confuse freewill and people's choices with God's heart and what He desires for all his children. There is a place for those who don't want to be with God.

    The God I know is the One who has said that He would leave the 99 and go after the one....
    the question is for us all - would we go with Him or just sit tight admiring ourselves while the "lost one" is still out there.

    A truly evangelistic heart has the heart of Jesus.
    Not wanting to lose one. Such a risk God took in creating us humans - so beautiful and so fragile - knowing that some might choose to live in self-condemnation.
    For there is no condemnation in those who are in Christ.
    He said he gave his son to redeem the world. Not just some.
    what we believe and what enters our hearts and either softens them or hardens them for eternity is another matter.
    Take care.
    I 'm off to dance tonight!

    Love Vivien.
  • ABClay
    Vivien,

    Are you saying that you are no longer a sinner?

    No need for me to take my questions to God, for He has already answered them in His Word to us. I was simply trying to find out how you reconciled your beliefs and view of God with what the Bible actually says...

    I can't make you believe in the God of the Bible, only God can do that.

    Have fun dancing...

    ABClay
  • ABClay
    Vivien,
    Something else... You wrote:
    Such a risk God took in creating us humans - so beautiful and so fragile - knowing that some might choose to live in self-condemnation.

    God? Risk? Some might choose?
    Regardless of how you view predestination, I don't think you are worshiping the God that said to Isaiah: I declare the end from the beginning, and from long ago what is not yet done, saying: My plan will take place, and I will do all My will.

    humm.... do what you will with this one, it is just the Bible after all....

    Grace and Peace nontheless....

    ABClay
  • Steve
    This book has moved my wife and myself closer to God. It has literely changed my life as well as my wife's. It is a work of fiction. All these people Pastor's etc. who are calling on people not to read this book are missing the point. Thank God for Paul Young.
  • Response to Mike
    Regarding your questions of Oct. 20:
    God has experienced the range of our emotions.
    "I, the Lord, love justice. I HATE robbery and iniquity "(Isa. 61 )
    "I...am a JEALOUS God (Ex. 20) Not envious, but jealous over His people-jealous for their affection.
    The Lord GRIEVED that He had made man (Gen. 6)
    He felt ANGER toward Moses (Ex. 4)
    He certainly experienced RAGE over those who kept turning to idols.
    So, as a PERSON, God knew compassion, gentleness, patience and all the things we experience. That is the point I was trying to make. God has personhood. In that Image, we are made.
    I didn't chose the right words when I described God as "an ethereal Being with no substance." Heavenly scenes portray Him as "seated, with His train filling the temple"and with Jesus at His right hand, and in Rev:4-"a throne set in heaven and One sat on the throne" and in His right hand He held a scroll.
    I do not know whether these are figurative or not. They are meant for us to better understand what God is like.
    The form Jesus is in, now. You said the transfiguration argued with Him currently being "fully human, fully God." Remember, the transfiguration took place BEFORE the Cross, while He was chatting with His disciples. But AFTER the resurrection, He appeared to them and said "Touch me and see. A spirit does not have flesh and bone as you see I have." Also, good old "doubting Thomas" was able to put his hand into the wounds in Jesus' side.
    Where is the error in how The Shack presents the Godhead? Man! Where do I begin? If God wanted to show what He was really like in the flesh (like the shack woman) why not just point those poor souls to Jesus? After all, that's why Jesus took on human form - "the exact image of the invisible God." And we don't need "another Jesus". The original did just fine. And the Holy Spirit is - HOLY. We just don't contain Him in a person and mess with that one, at all.
    Thank you, Mike. For your comments. And no, I don't think it's sinful to try to understand God at all, testified by my biblical research.
  • Vivien
    Hi Mike,

    You are a breath of fresh air,

    Vivien.
  • laurie
    I just want to thank you all for your comments. I am writing a masters thesis on humanity's freewill after the fall. I really do not need the "man/woman on the street" opinion but I sure got it here. One thing I did find, the same argument that Luther and Calvin had that continued with Zwingli and Beza, and on and on throughout the history of the church. I don't think you are going to get any closer to each other than they did.

    By the way, I liked The Shack, warts, pimples and all, because it reminded me that God loves us and is willing to go where we are to draw us back to Him.

    Oh and one thing that has not shown up on anyone else's argument, John 20:23, "If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained." Just wanted to throw a little gas on the fire.

    Blessings

    Laurie
  • ABClay
    To Laurie,

    This view of humanity's depravity did not originate with Luther and Calvin. After the Apostolic age, we see Augustine arguing these same points as well.

    Grace and Peace....

    ABClay
  • ABClay
    @ Laurie...

    The verse you quoted... I don't understand your point.

    Do you believe that we can forgive sins that were committed against God? How can this be, since we are not the one offended?

    And surely you aren't saying that because our sins are forgiven that we no longer continue to sin... Could you please explain how either side of this debate could have used this verse?

    Thanks,

    ABClay

    as a post script, I am sure that if you are in the middle of a Master's thesis on free-will you are already aware of the argument between Pelagius and Augustine. Forgive me if I was presumptuous.
  • laurie
    ABClay
    The issue that was being argued is the classic Calvinist/Araminian regarding predestination. The scripture was merely an add on to the suggestion that Mack's unforgiveness was preventing Papa's redemption of the murderer. I did not say anything about what I believe, I merely quoted something that Jesus said. Part of the problem with this discussion is that no matter what anyone posts there are a couple of people who read into it the gravest and most objectionable heresy.

    There was nothing in my post to suggest anything regarding my own theology and I will leave it that way.

    Just a suggestion from an old Christian saved over fifty years: ITim. 1:5 & 6
    But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion.

    Just one question, "What kind of fruit is this discussion producing?"

    Blessings
  • ABClay
    Laurie,

    I like how you come to "throw some gas on the fire", and then, when respectfully asked to explain your point, you respond with accusations unfruitful discussion.

    Never the less, since you did put your verse into the context of a particular point that was argued in this post by its author, do you believe that God is bound by our selfishness and sin as to whether He can forgive sins? If you take this verse in John to mean this, many, many problems are created.

    Surely you understand, being a Christian for over fifty years, that a verse can never mean what it never meant.

    And you ask what kind of fruit this discussion is producing? You didn't seem to have this problem when you added to this "fruitless discussion" yesterday but I will attempt to answer. Bad theology leads to a distorted view of Truth and of the work of Christ on our behalf. Since the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth, and many Christians don't have the discernment to sieve out the truth from error, it is incumbent on those who love the truth, who see the error, to point it out as the author has done. No one on either side has made any claim to perfect understanding, therefore, when a point is made, it is usually supported by Scripture so that it doesn't rest on its own merit.

    Grace and Peace to you sister,

    ABClay
  • laurie
    First of all I refuse to take the bait. However, you did ask me a direct question to which I will attempt to give a direct answer. First, look at the context. John 20 reports on the happenings when Jesus appeared on different occasions after the resurrection. It was on the first day of the week and He appeared in their midst. He breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you..." So there is no further explanation. In looking at it in the orginal language it appears to be a pretty straight forward declaration. As to the problems a literal interpretation creates begs the question "problems for whom?" Apparently not for God since He said it. I have no pat answer to that question. I find it fascinating in its possible ramifications. Could it blow up someone's dogma? You betcha! Does it blow up mine? No. Leaves me with questions but I can live with that. In fact I kind of enjoy not having all the answers. The important ones I do have.

    In defending myself, which I should always avoid, I did not respond with accusations. I responded with a gentle suggestion that examination of the discussion was up to each but if one were to find it unfruitful perhaps other pursuits are in order.
  • ABClay
    Laurie,

    Based on your response, did you say that you believe that God is hamstrung in His ability to lavish mercy and grace by our ability to forgive people without actually saying so? While I enjoy spirited and scholarly debate, I find it hard to discuss matters with those who speak in innuendo.

    You say, "I refuse to take the bait". What bait? Are you afraid to state your view plain and simply? I was setting no trap for you to fall into.

    When we say context, we don't simply mean the immediate context. While the immediate context is important, it must be viewed in the context of the entire revealed word. If this is not the case, and we only view verses in their immediate context, then there are clear contradictions in our Scripture, thereby proving the claims of Scripture as being the Words of a perfect God as a lie. I am readily able to give an example of this, but for the sake of brevity, I will abstain for now.

    I think that the content and nature of the latter part of your second post speaks to whether you made accusations or not, regardless of how loudly you protest that you didn't now.

    Grace and peace to you...

    ABClay
  • Martin Luther:
    Hey, y'all! Did you know that Octber 31, 1517 is the date that Luther nailed his 95 theses to the church door at Wittenberg? What he looked for was a debate. What he got, was a reformation!
    HAPPY REFORMATION DAY!
  • laurie
    Hey ABClay,
    Here's one for you...For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

    Now what is my innuendo? I believe that you think you know something about me that you absolutely do not. Therefore, I will stop wasting my time. And you may continue to carry on your discussion with anyone willing to accept your ability to read what they really think between the lines of what they have written.

    And to Karen...Happy reformation day back at you, Sis. Martin Luther was an amazing saint who has left us a wonderful heritage. Thanks for the reminder.
  • ABClay
    @Karen,
    Thanks for remembering...it's always easier to celebrate "reformation day" than Halloween :-)

    It's interesting that next week is reformation day as I am teaching on Romans 1:17 and it will be very applicable to work Luther's struggles with this verse into the lesson.

    @ Laurie
    What I perceived as your innuendo was your apparent inability to come out and say what you believe about God being limited in who He can shed His grace and mercy on. Instead of answering my question, yes or no, you go into your interpretation of the verse, implying a position without saying it, and then talk of your fascination regards the implications of your interpretation. Nevermind the fact that your interpretation of the verse, if I am correct in my understanding of what you are implying, stands 2000 years of orthodox Christianity on its head.

    A professor at RTS said that if you read a verse and come to an understanding that no one in orthodox Christianity has ever had, then you should probably rethink your position.

    About John 3:16...I love that verse, affirm every bit of it. While your version is very good (NAS?), I will render the HCSB translation: "For God loved the world in this way: He gave His One and Only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life." God loves the world, He sent His Son, and everyone who believes in His Son will have eternal life. AMEN!

    Hope you all have a blessed Lord's day.

    Grace and Peace..

    ABClay
  • laurie
    Better tell you now that I do not believe what you give me credit for.
    The translation I used is the NASB. By the way my Greek professor was on the translation committee for the HCSB. He is an Orthodox Priest and Monk. Wonderful man. As for my position, you should probably understand what it is before you pass judgment on it.

    You're not as good at reading between the lines as you think you are. So you can continue to guess that it is based upon what you think I think or you can move on to more interesting subjects. I did not attempt to interpret the verse merely stated its immediate context and its lack of significant variations in the Greek. Were I to attempt to interpret the verse it would take a lot more than a couple lines on a blog.

    According to scripture God has mercy on whom He will and hardens whom He will.
    Sorry to disavow you of your notions but I am not a heretic neither am I suggesting some outrageous new conception of God's grace. Now maybe you'd better get to studying, you have a lesson to prepare.
  • ABClay
    Laurie,

    You said in post 101
    Oh and one thing that has not shown up on anyone else’s argument, John 20:23, “If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.” Just wanted to throw a little gas on the fire.
    Then put the verse into the context of The Shack in post 104 by saying
    The scripture was merely an add on to the suggestion that Mack’s unforgiveness was preventing Papa’s redemption of the murderer.
    Then I asked in post 105 if you believed that God is bound by our selfishness and sin as to whether He can forgive sins (which is clearly an unorthodox position). You responded in post 106
    you did ask me a direct question to which I will attempt to give a direct answer. First, look at the context. John 20 reports on the happenings when Jesus appeared on different occasions after the resurrection. It was on the first day of the week and He appeared in their midst. He breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you…” So there is no further explanation. In looking at it in the orginal language it appears to be a pretty straight forward declaration. As to the problems a literal interpretation creates begs the question “problems for whom?” Apparently not for God since He said it. I have no pat answer to that question. I find it fascinating in its possible ramifications. Could it blow up someone’s dogma? You betcha!
    If, perhaps, I have tried to read into your mind to see what you believe as you contend, it is only because you did not deny this when asked directly, but in fact you seemed to confirm it by your explanation in post 106.

    If I have misrepresented your beliefs by my presumptions, I ask your forgiveness. It is difficult for me to see how any rational person could come to any other conclusion than I did given the information provided by you.

    I hope you have a wonderful Lord's Day :-)

    ABClay
  • laurie
    I will, have a wonderful Lord's Day, which in my life is everyday. Back at you.
  • Vivien
    Mike,
    You wouldn't be single, like the salsa, and live anywhere near Calgary would you?
    Vivien.
  • geoffrey pheasey
    I cannot believe you lot!How are we as Christians going to make an impact on the world if we spend all this time arguing about a book of fiction.lets get things into perspective.We need to present a united front to the world.
  • HEisable
    Some of you seem to know a lot about Christianity. Why is there so many different churches? Didnt Jesus establish one church?
  • Vivien
    ay carumba! An intelligent question from He is able!
    There is a point of choice for all individuals, I suppose. It really for me came down to surrending to God and letting go of my need and insistence to do it in my own strength. To "prove" my worth. That is always a disaster.
    There is so much pain in this world. Pain in the churches. Pain in the fracturing and disunity that is a direct and indisputable result of the fall. The institutional churches are not immune. They are not always "safe" places. The only safe place is in Jesus Christ.
    And for me, the church is his Bride. All of us. That we go to a building on sunday is just one facet of interaction. I believe there are so many churches because of our need to be right.
    God showed me that I am right in Him. Not because of anything I can do or say, or present to the world.
    We are united to Him, in Him, and then to eachother. That is the church. That which He established. the rock. The only foundation that gives true life. Consistent, unending life. An eternal flow of Truth which at any and all given moments can transcend all lies. To the pure = all is pure.
    His kingdom, His righteousness, His glory. His bride. Yummy.

    Love Vivien.
  • HEisable,

    Why do you assume that different local churches means that we are not all part of the same church Jesus established?

    Mark
  • Heisable
    Mark,
    Every church holds different beliefs. Some are radically different from the next. How can every church be part of the same ONE church that Jesus established? "One body, one spirit, one Lord, one faith, one baptism; One God and Father of all" Eph 4:46
  • Heisable,

    You've made an assertion without showing it to be so and you want me to answer it. What I am asking you is to show me that we aren't one church. On what basis are you asking?

    Mark
  • HEisable:

    Within the Christian faith, there are many denominations because PEOPLE are are different. Some worship by raising their hands, some quietly read prayers from a prayer book. Some like worship teams, some prefer traditional hymns. The important thing is whether we agree on basic Christian doctrine: The birth, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. His substitutionary death on the Cross and His promise to return.
    These beliefs are what the One Church, Christ's Body, is comprised of. As in this heavenly scene from Revelation: "I saw before me a great multitude...from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the Throne...crying out...'salvation belongs to our God...and to the Lamb!" Rev. 7:9
  • Heisable
    Mark,
    There is not only one church because like i said before churches all have differing views. Some of those views such as predestination like you all discussed on here before are not accepted among other christians. The Bible is absolute truth so there has to be a wrong or right. Which one is right? That means there is more than one "church."

    Karen,
    Is it right to have denominations? Even you yourself said its because of people and them being different. Even the word denominations means division. Didnt Jesus establish one church? Throughtout the new testament you read of Jesus always promoting unity, why is it ok to go against that because people are different?

    Just curious about all this, i have only recently been reading the Bible. I am not a christian. I am very confused as to why people just do what they want to praise God when it seems he laid it out pretty clear for people.
  • Vivien
    Heisable,
    Keep walking on the trail you seem to be on...
    Vivien.
    And keep asking great questions!
  • HEisable:

    Please read thru my last comment more carefully. Jesus did establish one church, but it is made up of many people (various denominations) embracing the same Christian doctrine. Only their manner of worship is different. Within this one church (made up of Baptists, Assembly of Gods, Nazarenes...) there is a wonderful sense of unity! Unity and love, because we are on the same page.
  • Heisable
    Karen,

    I dont see any Biblical account for Baptists, Assembly of Gods, or Nazarenes. Just because people made these "religions" doesnt mean that God accepts them. How is it that God made one church and now you are saying its ok for people to have as many churches as they want. I dont see how you can say there is a wonderful sense of unity. Most of those "religions" have little to nothing to do with each other. They disagree on so much, how is that unity? I agree that the church is made up of many people, I disagree when you say that it is made up of various denominations. The very essence of the word denomination is unbibilical. Why would anyone want to follow man made traditions poised as "religion?" People justify what they must to make themselves comfortable.
  • Vivien
    Heisable,

    Well said. Telling what isn't. Now could you in your eloquence tell what it means to be in unity in Jesus' church? Please? Move it off the continuum....!!!

    Vivien.
  • Heisable
    Vivien,

    Like I said, I am not a christian, only interested in becoming one. But, in my very inexperienced opinion of christianity, it appears to me that Jesus established one church. He laid down guidelines thru his teachings and his apostles teachings for what is acceptable. Jesus prayed for unity amongst his followers, he also said that there would be divisions among us. Those divisions are the denominations. I believe you cannot come to God any way you want to. I believe you have to come his way. the way he wants. So many denominations would cease if they would stop doing what they want and start doing what God wants and what God has said in his Holy inspired word. It makes me sick to my stomach thinking of all of the selfish people in the world who worship the God that they made. God made us, not us him.
    I know most of that was rambling, I hope it makes sense to you all. Like I said I am very limited in my knowledge of spiritual things. I am trying to find the church that Jesus established, not the ones that men have made up.
  • Vivien
    Would you seek His face then my friend?

    Vivien.
  • Heisable
    Vivien

    You make zero sense... Thanks for nothing
  • Vivien
    Heisable,

    So sorry. You will never find the "church" you are looking for, until you find "Him" first. He is real, He is there, ask Him. Be still and know that He is good. And yes He is able. Take care.

    Vivien.
  • Heisable
    Vivien,

    What church do you attend?
  • ABClay
    @Heisable,

    God is Holy, Righteous, Just, and the creator. Adam (the first man), of his own "free-will" sinned against God and therefore God cast him out of Eden and all of humanity now is under the just condemnation of God because we are all Adam's offspring. One only kids himself if he thinks that he could ever merit freedom from this condemnation based upon his own works, for the bible says that all of man's works are as filthy rags. Before casting Adam and Eve out, however, God made a promise of a redeemer and all through the Old Testament, those who had faith in God and His promise of the Messiah were saved by grace through faith in the promise of Him.
    About 2000 years ago, the Messiah, Jesus Christ, God incarnate was sent by the Father to be our redeemer. He lived a perfect life, fully without sin though fully man, and was tried by sinful men (though it was God's plan) and nailed to a cross. God put the sins of all who would ever believe on Jesus while He hung there and God dealt His just and righteous wrath(that wrath that we deserve for we all have sinned), on His son Jesus. Jesus body was taken down from the cross and buried in a tomb. Three days later, Christ rose from the dead and all those who believe in this simple foolish message will have eternal life with the Father and be restored in full, neverending fellowship with Him when we are made perfect and given a new body, free from sin and the flesh that corrupts us today.

    Heisable, All who believe this foolish message are "the Church", there is no other way to be saved.

    God bless, and may God grant you Grace and Peace...

    ABClay
  • ABClay
    as an addendum to my previous post, it is because of our selfish, sinful flesh that there are many denominations.

    The "true church" is invisible in that God only knows those whom He has ordained to eternal life (Acts 13:48). We bicker and fight amongst ourselves because we do not have a perfect understanding of God nor His Word.

    I imagine there are people from all denominations who are being saved, but some of these today, who claim the name of Christ, are certainly unbiblical in their theology. Christ said in Matthew 7, "Many will come to me on that day and say Lord, Lord, Didn't I do this, and do that....." and Jesus will say, "depart from me, I never KNEW you".

    It's not about you knowing Christ, it's about Him knowing you.

    Grace and Peace,

    ABClay
  • Heisable
    ABClay,

    What "church" do you attend?
  • ABClay
    What denomination? Baptist
  • ABClay
    If you read my post in #132, them I am obliged to tell you to "Repent from your sins and Believe".

    Grace and Peace...

    ABClay
  • Heisable
    ABClay,

    Where is the Biblical basis for the Baptist Church, wasnt it started by a man? Why follow some fallible man's creed? That is something I dont understand about religion!! So if i repent and believe I will be saved? Thats all it takes?
  • HEisable: I'm trying so hard to understand where you are coming from. By "one church" it sounds as if you mean a big church building where all believers worship together. But Christ's Church is not a building. It is a spiritual body of believers, united by a common faith.
    This is why we have unity. My neighbor believes in having only organ music. I don't. But we agree that Jesus was born, died for our sin, rose again and is coming back. We are ONE in Him.
  • ABClay
    Heisable,

    You wrote:
    Where is the Biblical basis for the Baptist Church, wasnt it started by a man? Why follow some fallible man’s creed?

    It seems that no matter what answer we give you, you will find something to disagree about. You will spring up with another question.

    I don't believe you are "interested in being a Christian", because the Bible tells me that there is no one who seeks after God.

    What is it? If someone can answer this question for you, you will find Christianity appealing enough to become a Christian? Give me a break. Christianity is not appealing to anybody who has not been born again.

    Let me break it down: You ask, "So if i repent and believe I will be saved? Thats all it takes?
    A good friend equated it to marriage. Sure, all you have to do to get married is say "I do" but "I do" is a result, an effect of something that has happened within you that makes your wife irresistible to you and you would do anything for her. She is your treasure and you spend every moment wanting to grow closer to her and please her.

    Any faith that you muster of your own ability is weak and feeble, it will not do. Saying a "sinner's prayer" will not save you. Being baptized will not save you. Only God can save you and when He does, Christ becomes the only thing that truly matters to you. He becomes the pearl that you will not let go of because you know that He is your only hope for facing the wrath of God. You will believe and you will repent...Why? Because you have no choice, everything else has become worthless. Paul says in Philippians 3, "everything that was a gain to me, I have considered to be a loss because of Christ...Because of Him I have suffered the loss of all things and consider them filth, so that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own...but one that is through faith in Christ".

    I tell you that you should repent and believe not because I know that you are able to, but because that is your responsibility. God has made Himself evident to you in His creation. The stars in the sky, the sun, moon, and all of nature scream out to you and testify of His existence. You know about God's righteousness because He wrote the Law on your heart, you know it is wrong to lie, cheat, kill, etc; you don't need the penal code to tell you this. Even the natives in the wilds of Africa know right from wrong. You are not a good person. Question is, will you believe? I don't know and only God can grant this to you. If you understand your depravity and need of a savior, then all I can say is for you to beg God for mercy because you are storing up wrath for yourself and I don't want you to be in that lot that is found outside of Christ when He passes judgment.

    May God bless you with saving grace....

    ABClay
  • Heisable,

    You said:
    So if i repent and believe I will be saved? Thats all it takes?


    The answer is yes and no. The answer is simple, but not easy.

    Marriage is used as an illustration in Scriptures many times. So let me use marriage to illustrate the simple yet complex answer to your question.

    If someone asked, "What must I do to be married? Just say a few vows ending with 'I do' and that's it?"

    The answer would be yes and no. You would legally be married, however, if that's all you did would you really be married?

    There is a button at the top of this blog called "Two Ways to Live" which explains the Christianity. Click here to give it a read. It should be helpful.

    Please let us know what you think.

    Mark

    p.s. The best thing to do would be to find a local pastor whom you could sit with and go over these things in person. Let me know if I can help in this manner.
  • Vivien
    Heisable,

    Hi,

    I believe you that you are looking for truth. That you want to be a christian. Your questions are valid, they are your questions. Please find safe places for your heart and your questions. God is the safest place. Ask him to protect your heart as you search for truth. I like your style.

    It really doesn't matter if you are "good" or "bad" - it just matters that you come to the master as you are. So He can love you. the penalty is paid. You are free to be loved and to love. Anything else is a lie.

    Jeremiah 29:13 "You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart."

    Mathew 7:8 " For everyone who asks, receives, he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks, the door will be opened."

    I go to a church in Calgary, called Centre Street church. it is an evangelical missionary church which matters to me not. I go to sing, and I pray always, that His spirit will lead me to love and be loved. He has not failed me yet. I do not anticipate it. It is in His spirit that I am part of His bride. We are all at different levels in our walk with God. It is just to learn, ask questions, and to allow God to minister to your own personal pain. Sometimes that is directly, sometimes thru others. He is good. And He will bring you Joy!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Take care.
    Vivien.
  • HEisable

    Listen to these other guys. They are right.
    Jeremiah 29:13 “You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.”

    To owner of this website: What is this Sweet Tea business? I'm from the Pacific NW and have heard of it but don't know what it is. Tea with honey?
  • In the "me" link at the top of the blog I explain a bit.

    Concerning the blog title, “Sweet Tea” comes from the South and growing up drinking sweet tea which certainly was attached to southern hospitality as it was the main drink offered when visiting with someone. The “Theology” part comes from the understanding, study and application of God as He relates to all areas of life.


    Sweet tea is tea made with sugar. Dixie Crystals, preferably. ;)

    Mark
  • Sweet Tea: Thanks, Mark.
  • Tina
    My goodness sheeple! This book brings healing and a greater understanding of the amazing Love of Our Father without religious legalism! Chill out, will you??? Take it for what it's worth! I imagine that He is looking down from Heaven and shaking his head right about now. His children beating each other up again, missing the whole message.
  • Tina, yes, I read that too, the part about how the "Law" is used by religion to control the people. But, really, that is not rue, you see religion actually could care less for what the Bible has to say about anything. Religion uses "Traditions" and the "Customs" of their fathers to control the people.
    Only through the Christ are we to escape the penalty of the "Law" which is "death". You see, those of the world, not in the body of the Christ are yet under the penalty of the "Law".
    read Revelation 19:14 for a reality check. Of course if the scriptures are not the rule by which you govern your thoughts, then I am making a noise that cannot be heard. The book is fiction, but is presented as non-fiction, "as told to Willy".
    I could throw lots and lots of scripture out there, like Simple Mann, but suffice it to say that teaching doctrine in the guise of fiction, like Tim LaHaye in his "Left Behind" books is but a sign of our times.
    (Read, 2 Peter2:3, "In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up" NIV)
    The book, The Shack, is a mizture of truth and half truths. Remembering our original parents, Adam, and Eve, they were attracted, as we are, to a mixture of "good and evil", of some truth and untruths. The lie is that we "surly we will not die" for enjoying this evil mixture. And just who is it that keeps telling us this lie? Surly all mankind has eternal life. You don't need to pay too much attention the the Bible. " Narrow is the way" -- "Broad is the path to destruction"
    Division? Hey, its too late, read the Bible, it is filled with division. The first century church became so divided even Paul was disturbed (1 Cor 1:11-16)

    I too read the book because some well meaning friends (I suspect,wanting to straighten me out in my thinking) urged me to read it. I enjoyed reading the book, and, unlike some, I refuse to get my "theology" from a work of fiction. And, for those that think the Bible is a "work of fiction", well, you will probably adore The Shack -- funny how that works.
    Not guilt here -- I don't need a work of fiction to introduce me to the Love My Heavenly Father has for me and my brothers and sisters in our Savior.
    Bye for now, I have to go meat with my friend and let them know what I really think of the book they adore :-) Peace, to you all, Dan
  • Tina
    Thank you for your response. I, too, am a Bible addict, seeking only the Bible for Truths to apply to my life and seeking my answers only there also.



    As a parent of six children, I completely enjoy my relationships with each one of them, differently. I particularly enjoy the ones that are living their lives carefree, flavorful, colorful, fully exploring their world freely to reach their highest potential - completely confident in my unconditional love and acceptance - knowing that in all of their explorations as they bounce around in their lives (hitting walls, stumbling through rough territory, even get hurt here and there), their hearts are loving toward me, checking in with me now and again for direction and advice. There is something beautiful in that. In their "knowing" of how much I love them, they are free to live life fully and completely unhindered and I believe that those are the ones who will fly higher and do more for God than those who might try to fit into a mold that someone has made for them. My prayer is that the freedom that I have given them (with boundaries) will carry over into their relationship with God. I believe that our Father loves us all the same, as well, but that He particulary enjoys those of us who are unhindered by the religiousity that plagues even our full gospel churches. He is a God of complete freedom in Him, something few Christians ever experience because of that very "mold" - that mold symbolizes the Law.
  • ABClay
    @Tina,

    Do you love my children the same as you love your children?

    ABClay
  • Tina
    I'm sitting here scratching my head, wondering what your question has to do with anything. Legalism and religiousity lives! Suffice it to say, "Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you will be like him yourself"
  • ABClay
    Tina,

    I am sorry that I didn't better state my question. I was on my mobile device and didn't feel like typing alot.

    To be honest, I was just trying to make sense of what you just put up relating your relationship with your children to the relationship that God has with His children. Honestly, you were coming across as a universalist and I wanted to see if you were by asking that question. You started the analogy, I was just trying to better understand what you believed. Perhaps a better rendering of my question would be, "Who are God's children?"

    I have children, and I am most pleased in my children when they honor and respect me by obeying my commands. I have written the law for my household, and as long as my children obey those rules, they can do as they please. I don't want my children to obey these laws simply because they fear the punishment of breaking these laws. I want them to obey these laws because the love, honor, and respect me. They know that I am pleased when they obey my rules, therefore, in their striving to please me because of their love for me and my commands, they obey them. I think this is a much more Biblically accurate representation of our relationship with God and His commands and our freedom in Him.

    That "mold" as you say, seems to me to be His rules as He has given us in His Word. I want to fit into that "mold" because I love God, I want to please Him, I want to honor Him by a Godly life and how do I know how to honor Him? By reading His word and obeying His commands.

    Near the back of your Bible, you will find this, "By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked."

    God wants more from us than, as you said,
    checking in with (Him) now and again for direction and advice
    Osteen is way off the mark. Take it to the bank.

    Grace and Peace to you Tina,

    ABClay
  • Heisable
    ABClay,

    Sorry it has taken me so long to respond since last time. I just wanted you to know that people with an attitude like you are the reason I have never become a christian.

    You said "It seems that no matter what answer we give you, you will find something to disagree about. You will spring up with another question.
    I don’t believe you are interested in being a Christian”

    Excuse me for questioning anything, I guess I should be a thoughtless mindless zombie. How am I supposed to learn anything unless I ask questions. I am glad that you DONT believe I am interested in being a christian. That really hurts.

    Thanks to those who had a positive uplifting comment for me. It means a lot to know that there are some people out there that embody what Christ was like.
  • Tina
    I don't know who's comment you read that said "It seems that no matter what answer we give you, you will find something to disagree about. You will spring up with another question. I don’t believe you are interested in being a Christian” but it wasn't mine.

    In answer to your question, "Who are God's children", I submit to youthat all those who call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ become His children. We are all His creation but must be adopted by calling on the name of the Lord to become His children.

    I am not a universalist. I am a born again, spirit filled christian and have been walking with the Lord for 30 years. I have paid a price for my decision but have never regreted it, not for a minute. We settled the issue of obedience a long, long time ago. I will do whatever He asks at any given moment, hands down - and He knows it. That having been settled, we can move on to other things like enjoying the Father - daughter relationship. There is nothing like relaxing in the knowledge that He is good - even if I'm not. I would encourage anyone to seek out this wonderful relationship. Jesus is the best thing that has ever happend to me. He has healed me, comforted me, delivered me and the list goes on and on. I also encourage you to seek out those answers to your questions. I had a million of them - one word of caution though. Look to Him and His Word for those answers. We sheeple are only human and kinda stupid sometimes. But He is always right on. God Bless You and feel free to write to me anytime!
  • Heisable
    Tina

    I was talking to ABClay, sorry
  • Tina
    ABClay,

    When you walk with the Lord daily, minute by minute, when He is always on your mind and His purposes always in your heart, obdience is not an issue. I'll bet it's fun being your kid.
  • ABClay
    Okay, First @ Heisable,

    You say that people like me are the reason that you haven't become a Christian.

    I would encourage you to read my posts again.

    I would say that you haven't become a Christian because you haven't yet been called by the Holy Spirit to believe. Once this happens, all of the angry, mean, hypocritical Christians in the world couldn't keep you from your Savior. So while your excuse may make you feel better, from a Biblical standpoint, it holds no weight. Jesus said, "All those the Father gives Me WILL come to me." Therefore, all I can do is tell you the gospel, which I have tried to do, and tell you to repent of your sins and believe. God must do the calling. Regardless of how mean you think I am, I don't want you to be in the lot that doesn't claim the blood of Christ on judgment day.

    Questions are good, and we all learn from questions but the question that you kept asking had nothing to do with Salvation. I don't believe that you should be a "zombie" but no amount of intellectual satisfaction about how coherent the doctrine of the church is will ever bring you to Christ. Is the church perfect? No, but this is because the people who make up the church are not perfect...YET.

    Now @ Tina,

    I am so happy that you are not a universalist. You did say things that I don't understand though.

    Do we earn our salvation? You say:
    "We are all His creation but must be adopted by calling on the name of the Lord to become His children."
    Do we have to do something before the Lord will adopt us? We do something (call on the name of the Lord) and then He is obligated by what we do to save us? Isn't Grace, by definition, unearned?

    It is my understanding that we are dead in our trespasses and sins until God makes us alive. Those who are "dead" in sins, cannot please God because we are unable to do so. It'd be like asking a leopard to change his spots or an Ethiopian his skin. If we are unable to please God, how can we call on Him? Is the goodness of God, His power and His divine nature not things that are spiritually discerned since He has delivered us over to a worthless mind to do what is morally wrong?

    I am aware of the calls in the Gospels to "repent and believe" and these are things that we are commanded to do and to proclaim, but I understand these calls not to speak to our ability to do them but to our responsibility to do them. The same can be said of Paul's charge in Romans, "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." I believe this, and I tell people this, but I also believe that people, unless they have been born again, are unable to do this.

    Is this not manifested in our prayers? Do we not plead with God to save someone? If we do plead with God to save someone, isn't it up to God and not our ability to persuade or cajole?

    You also said,
    I will do whatever He asks at any given moment
    Hasn't God already asked us all that we should do?

    Thanks for the discourse, Grace and Peace to you all...

    ABClay

    Oh, and about my kids....
    My kids would have the most fun if I let them stay up late at night, not brush their teeth, not go to school, not take baths, etc. But because I know what is best for them, I must squeeze every bit of fun out of their childhood by making them do these things. ;-)
  • Dawn
    ABClay,

    I have learned more about my relationship with God since my daughter was born than I have at any other time in my life. As I speak with my daughter, who thinks I am being completely unfair for making her take a nap, I remember the times when God has told me to do something that was good for me, but I didn't want to do. I often react much like my daughter does. With whining and crying that I am not tired and don't need it. I think God makes us parents so that we understand him better. I know i do. I can see much clearer now that God isn't trying to squeeze all of the fun out of my life, but protecting me and taking care of me. You're comment made me laugh because my daughter just finished her plea to not take a nap and looked at me like I was very mean to her for making her do it.

    Dawn
  • Dawn
    Ok, I think my comment was a little out of context, and I apologize. It just struck me at the time, and I've been letting my fingers type faster than my mind flushes things out lately. Please disregard my previous comment.
  • ABClay
    Dawn,

    I have a 11 year old, a 7 year old and a 2 year old. It is interesting to see the changes in them and their respect for the rules. As they get older, I have noticed that they appreciate more all that their mother and I do for them, and therefore, there is not the outright rejection of any rules that we make for them, but an understanding that these rules are for their own good.

    I think that this is really a pretty decent picture of our relationship with God.
    All those who believe are BORN, not of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. (my kids didn't choose to be born)
    At first the rules are contrary to what our fleshly desires, (our nature) tell us to do but we are able to love and abide by these rules because Christ lives in us and we are no longer slaves to sin. We are irresistibly drawn to please the Father.
    As time goes on, we begin to love and appreciate these rules even more. So much so that they become second nature. We have grown in the knowledge and grace of Jesus, become more like Him, and therefore bring more glory to the Father through His sanctification of us.

    Humm....thanks Dawn.

    Grace and Peace...

    ABClay
  • Tina
    ABClay, spoken like a true Pharisee. You could make a dry sponge grow legs and run from water. No need to respond, I won't be back here - I can't all the "love, grace and peace" that emits from your being.

    Bye yall!
  • Vivien
    ABClay,

    What does it mean for you to simply rest in the love of Daddy?

    Vivien.
  • ABClay
    To Tina, Even though you say you wont be back :-)

    Call me whatever you wish, but I think that I have well established that I believe the obeying of the commandments of God is not what saves one from the condemnation of God. The Pharisees believed that it did.

    I quote the apostle John again: “By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.”

    Is the Apostle John a Pharisee?

    To Vivien,
    Your terminology represents the degeneration of the church today into a worldly organization who has no regard for the Holiness, Power, Judgment, and Wrath of the Creator who is worthy of all praise, honor, and reverence. The god you speak about has been distilled into only one attribute, Love. It seems as if you have created a god in your image that more resembles santa claus than the God that has revealed Himself in the Scripture.

    ABClay
  • Vivien
    Ho Ho Ho......
    Keep the saliva dripping pal, your wrath seems to be sufficient for God himself to take a holiday. If He were indeed a wrathful God. I guess Jesus really did die for nothing if it was just for you.
    Honestly you are so far gone in fury and rage that I almost believe that what you are saying is an online joke.
    I pray God will send His angels to minister to your traumatized heart. Was your earthly father so kind to you?
    Vivien.
  • ABClay
    vivien,

    Okay what ever you say.

    ABClay
  • Joshua
    Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday and today and forever.
    Psa 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in Your sight. You hate all workers of iniquity.

    Tit 3:14 And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, so that they may not be unfruitful.
    Tit 1:16 They profess that they know God, but in their works they deny Him, being abominable and disobedient and reject every good work.
  • rose
    what's up with this ABClay guy. After reading some of the posts, he apolgizes way too much for misreading or misinterpreting or not being clear, etc. And then he comes back and chews you up and spits you out. Looks to me like he's got to be right all of the time, has to have the last word all of the time, completely self-righteous. AB don't you know that knowledge puffs up but love builds up? That arguments are vain? And that everything works by love? Taking love out of the equation as you have demonstrated is like taking ... well, like taking sugar out of southern tea.
  • I see far more agreements than disagreements among the comments here. Let's remember "above all, keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace."
  • Glenda Glasser
    There is a great gulf fixed between Heaven and earth. For now, we see as if from behind a vail, darkly, but then we shall see face-to-face.

    Why does God allow Mack to see his daughter?
  • Vivien
    My mother died last year, and during the grieving process (as if that is really done...) God revealed my mother's voice to me. she said"I'm sorry Vivien, you and Morgan (my daughter) have a good life."
    I needed to hear that, as she never said it to me. I have forgiven all the pain. But somehow those words freed me. they freed me from needing them from others still here too.
    so that I can love more deeply and more freely.
    God reveals so much to us in his infinite wisdom and love. He is so cool and so alive isn't he?
    Cool is definitely one of the million attributes I could assign to him .......

    Vivien.
    ps God will remove that dark veil to all who are so inclined. as in heaven on earth...as it is in heaven... we see God in the faces of men and women. and yes I look forward to seeing His face in full one day. how forward you cannot imagine.
  • Jay Kuhn
    Sorry, but I have to go with Mike's assessment of your criticism. "Seems critical for the sake of being critical". I doubt the author ever intended this to be a book that describes all the attributes of a Holy God. It simply deals with the love of God and a man who was questioning that love because of the evil things that have happened in his life. Please don't act as if you've never been there and never wondered where God was at some point in your Christian life.

    The book does a good job in describing free will (which is what I suspect is the underlying beef many here have). It teaches that we are never to doubt God's love even in the dark times. It clearly describes that the Trinity is sufficient and satisfied within their existence in need of nothing. God did not create evil but allow it for his glory and this was clearly described.

    I'm not a fiction lover, especially when it come to Biblical principles, but I must say this book caused me to think and that I know scares all the "popes" out there who want us to come to them for all Biblical knowledge.
  • Jay Kuhn
    @rose regarding "what’s up with this ABClay guy".

    Please keep in mind that ABC is a TULIP, a 5 point Calvinist and they are by far the edgiest (should I say angriest) believers. Nothing like a thought provoking book that depicts a sovereign God that allows for free will to shake them up a little.
  • David Sanger
    Wayne--thank you for your excellent Biblical review of the latest chaff blowing in evangelical America. Also, thanks for including the Spurgeon quote--nice touch. Truly there are fewer and fewer folks in the pew with any semblance of Christian discernment. Sadly, many "pastors" are not much better. Dangerous times indeed when such blasphemous filth circulates recommended one Christian to another.
  • ABClay
    @ Rose, et al.,

    Yawn.....

    Ad Hominem: attacking an opponent's character rather than answering his argument.

    If I come across the way that you describe, then you have my apologies for ruffling your sensibilities. (Dang, I did it again ;-) )Trying to be sensitive to Christian brothers and sisters while defending the truth in love can be a difficult task which I have yet to master.

    I will restrain myself from my usual tactic of "chewing you up and spitting out out". :-)

    ABClay
  • rose
    To apology without sincerety is a lie. But then that's okay ... because it's you who did it. Additionally, I doubt that you have the ability refrain from anything, much less elevating and inflating yourself ... you enjoy it way too much. You can't refrain from arrogance, you must repent of it.
  • ABClay
    Rose,

    the only thing that I have been angry about is bad theology which has caused Christian brothers and sisters to create gods in their own image intead of lifting the One True God high. If my indignation regards this causes problems for you, perhaps the problem is not mine but yours.

    You, however, have decided that you would be angry with me instead of debating the issues with which you have a problem. Perhaps you would do well to examine yourself in light of your comments.

    As for me, I deal with sin in my life daily, so to say that I am above criticism would be a lie.

    Grace and peace to you sister,

    ABClay
  • rose
    Ohhh make no mistake about this, I am NOT angry with you! I'm simply confused about your declaration of your christian faith and the fruit that spurts out of your presence on this website. ... that's all! After all, He said we will know them by their fruit, remember??? And you, being the self declared elder of this website, I just expected differently, that's all.
  • Rose,

    You make a strong accusation against ABClay. There have been many disagreements in this thread and some even heated. But to question his Christianity?

    Are you aware of the context of Matt. 7 and knowing someone by their fruit? ABClay does not fall into this category. If we wanted to equivocate on the application of these passages The Shack would fall more closely into the bad fruit category as doctrine is concerned.

    The charge of ABClay always apologizing would actually show his Christian character i.e. repentance. So you're charge is self-refuting.

    Another self-refutation of your charges against ABClay is that you confront him in an unbiblical way to charge the he is being unbiblical.

    Would you like it if I compared you to the Pharisee in Luke 18 who prayed that he's glad he's not like other sinners?

    Anyways, let's stop with the personal attacks.

    The elder of this site.

    Mark
  • ABClay
    Rose,

    Point taken. My "fingers" sometimes do get ahead of my brain and my heart.

    If clear error is not dealt with decisively, it does have a tendency to propagate exponentially though. The manner with which I speak against these could be done in a more charitable way and I thank you for calling me to task.

    I have never proclaimed myself as an elder of this site or any organization for that matter. Brother Johnmark is the one who bears that title here and I in no way can measure up to his knowledge nor his charity in matters of the faith and dealing with false beliefs.

    Grace and Peace...

    ABClay
  • rose
    Dear Elder, I never questioned his christianity ... i questioned his fruit which is what we are told to do ... will not apologzize for that ...

    ABClay ... thank s for your response.

    I think I'll move on now ... God Bless you all
  • Heisable
    Rose,

    Thank you for exposing ABClay for being the very definition of a defensive follower. He attacks as soon as he feels threatened.
    I am currently trying to make a decision in my life on whether i want to become a follower of Christ. People like ABClay really scare me and discourage me. I dont want to end up like that. Thank you Rose for showing me another side of christianity that i have not seen on this thread.

    ABClay, how can you be so critical of everyone??
  • rose
    Heisable, I want you know that becoming a follower of Jesus is the most rewarding decision that you will ever make. It's the most exciting journey you will ever take. He is wonderfully alive and well and wants desperately to have a relationship with you. He will meet you right where you are - questions, fears, insecurities - and once you make the decision to invite Him into your heart, He will begin to work with you, in you, answering your questions (I really think He loves questions) and calming your fears. He will equip you to be all that He created you to be and in that, you will find so much peace, joy and a wonderful sense of fulfillment and belonging. You will begin to "see" the Kingdom of God as He reveals Himself to you through His Word. Read the Word. That's where your foundation will be built that will uphold you for the rest of your life - whatever comes your way. That is the one sure-fire way to know Him. You can't trust someone unless you know them. Once you begin to know Him from His Word, you will find that you can trust Him. Once you begin to trust Him as the loving Father that He is, you will be changed forever. I don't know if I am allowed to put my email address in here but you can certainly stay in touch with me if you'd like. It is rose123499@yahoo.com .... hope I'm not violating any rules here - if so, I'm sorry!
  • Heisable
    Rose,

    Thank you! That shows me a lot about your character and how a christian should be.

    My biggest concern is about the ONE church. I feel like everyone is doing their own thing instead of being the ONE church that God wanted. How can we all just accept what is going on and join some denomination?
  • rose
    Heisable, even is Jesus' day there were a number of different groups that preached about Him. In one scripture, his disciples told him of such a group that was preaching in His name and asked Jesus to stop them since they were not a part of their group. Jesus said, if they are not against me, they are for me. You see, the gospel is not limited to one denomination or group of people (even though many denominations think it is). God will use any denomination, any willing person, any means that will yield to His Spirit to tell the good news of Jesus. He is broad-minded and goal oriented and focused on the primary purpose and that is to tell the world about the salavation message of Jesus so that they miss hell. I think that in a perfect world (which we are not living in) we would be all one denomination. The one true church of Jesus consists of all true believers, regardless of their denomination or no denomination at all - those who wholeheartedly seek to know Him on a personal level through His Word (that has nothing to do with religion) and are honest in their hearts to follow Him to the best of their ability. The parable of the wheat and tares clearly indicates that not all who appear to be followers of Christ are - as a matter of fact, according to that parable, only about half are. Some people still believe that to belong to one affiliation or another qualifies them, but it doesn't. It's all about your heart and His Word. I'm not going to be returning to this web site so if you would like to communicate with me, please feel free to do so at my email address. God bless : )
  • Rose,

    When you said to ABClay:

    I’m simply confused about your declaration of your christian faith and the fruit that spurts out of your presence on this website. … that’s all!

    It was certainly easy to understand that you were questioning whether or not he were really a Christian. Can you give me the place that tells you to question ABClay's fruit and how it is to be done?

    He has not cut off anyone's ear like the Apostle Peter did. Nor has he made a whip like Jesus to drive evildoers from the Temple.

    Heisable,

    If you think ABClay is so bad or such a poor representation of someone saved by Christ this should give you all the more reason to repent and believe in Jesus. Just think, if Jesus can save such a sinner as ABClay then, surely, you too can be saved. I say this in all seriousness and I add, repent of your sins and believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

    Did you go through the Two Ways to Live link I gave you?

    Mark
  • Randy Cochran
    I think that what we have here on this blog is evidence of the problems that we see in Christianity today.

    People who view "the shack" as good stuff, great reading, and worthy of bringing them closer to God obviously have an unbiblical sense of self worth and piety which causes them to have sensibilities which are easiy bruised when they are presented with the truths that are presented in the Bible. These people accuse those who show them the truth of being hateful and mean, then instead of debating the issues that they are in dire need of properly understanding, they run off and turn to Joyce Meyers, Joel Osteen, and Rick Warren for support.

    Thanks for the review.

    Randy
  • papa
    Personally, I prefer the one by the B52's...

    Will you lot please get a life outside of this blog now.

    Love papa.
  • Bobbi McConnell
    I urge you to take this book as it was intended, a work of Fiction, it is up to the responsible reader to assume that as Fiction, this is not a true story and the author does not insinuate that it is based on fact. As a Christian, I caution those who take this book literally to check their faith and their knowlege of the scriptures!
  • Bobbi,

    I agree that The Shack is fiction. However, have you read the appendix and what the author's intent was for the book and the coming movie? What did he say his intent is as far as communicating truths about God?

    Mark
  • OBie
    I object to the whole concept expressed by Simple Mann about God calling the righteous. God loves everyone, not just the one that are "called" or "chosen" or those that think they are chosen because that puts them in God's country club of limited membership. What nonsense. I suppose there is some comfort in thinking "i'm special" and that person isn't, but it is hardly Christian.
  • abclay
    OBie,

    I agree with you that God loves everyone.

    I assume that you are a Christian, let me ask you, why are you a Christian?

    Grace and Peace...

    ABClay
  • Chelsea
    As I was reading, I began to question some of the philosophies stated. I believe it brought God down to our level, and God is to be omnipotent and we should not be able to comprehend the knowledge or the ways of him.

    Would you agree?
  • abclay
    Chelsea,

    I totally agree with what you said. When we claim to comprehend God, we have suddenly made Him, not omnipotent, omniscient, and immutable, but we have "brought Him down to our level" and no human mind can fully understand Him.
    Oh the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments and untraceable His ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been His counselor? Or who has ever given to Him, and has to be repaid? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
    I don't think that anyone on either side of the debate has made any claim to "comprehend" God. We are only responsible for "apprehending" what He has said about Himself in His Word; and we will be held to account for following His Word and worshiping Him as He has revealed Himself.

    I think that this has been the thrust of the review and the debate that has followed.

    Grace and Peace...

    ABClay
  • I respect your opinion but feel you are looking to deep into the book and missing the whole point of the story. It is about a relationship with God. The book is fiction and not meant for direct theological education. It is a story of a man who feels that God doesn't care about him or the loss of his baby girl. In this God shows him that he is dearly loved. I feel encouraged to take God out of this "religious box" or paradigm that the church sometimes puts God in. God loves all of us unconditionally no matter the circumstance that we are in and The Shack is a perfect demonstration of his love. It may not fit the "religious profile" but I am not much for religion. I am a man truly seeking God and building my relationship with him. God Bless.
  • Pastor Jeremy,

    I will ask you the same thing I asked Bobbi above.

    I agree that The Shack is fiction. However, have you read the appendix and what the author’s intent was for the book and the coming movie? What did he say his intent is as far as communicating truths about God?

    Thanks,

    Mark
  • Steve
    I find it humorous that one brother's (or sister's)criticism of another brother's( W.P. Young) attempt to reveal God to others (initially his 6 children), has led to thousands of multiplying critical responses to the critical response of one brother who was responding critically of another's criticism of this book, who was defending the opinion of another brother's view, and so and so on and so on.....
    I don't want this to be another critical response, so I will ask myself: Have I got on my knees and poured out my heart before God and spent time with Him regarding this matter? Have I asked Him what he thinks about this book? What does the Spirit say to me inwardly? Or have I just gone straight to my views and opinions about what I believe and start "defending the truth". It so easy for me to do that.
    I love Jesus and I am all for standing up for Him, but I am going to talk to Him a lot more on this matter before I criticize. This book did something to my inner man and I am witnessing numerous revelations of a fuller knowledge of Him in many fundamental, long time Bible rich believers.
    Before we attempt to squelch that, I challenge us all to spend big time with God and consider this matter.
  • sarah
    Got a good laugh out of all the arguments on a dreary Sat afternoon.
  • Danielle
    I have just finished reading The Shack and have thoroughly enjoyed it! It was a great way to spend my weekend. I became interested in the book because I heard it was a bit controversial. I am glad I read it. It is fiction, people. Not real. Why knock this book? It is a made up story. Do you all have nothing else to do than to discredit the imagination of someone else? I like the non-secular and non-denominational theme of the book. The book is about forgiveness
  • Dear new commenters,

    I agree that The Shack is fiction. However, have you read the appendix and what the author’s intent was for the book and the coming movie? What did he say his intent is as far as communicating truths about God?

    Thanks,

    Mark
  • Shawn McGary
    Hmm... i just love how you're acting so tough. How's about yall humble yourselves and stop fighting. This book wasn't meant for you Mark. Don't be greedy. Young didn't write it for big ol Marky. God doesn't need to be defended. If this book helps people to grow in a new relationship, who are you to judge it? oh... you'll probably just say you're critiquing it...any way you put it... your judgment keeps a fallin. Relationship is way more important than sitting in church Sunday after Sunday half asleep in your tux and tie, counting down the minutes till you get dismissed so you can go watch football. Something tells me that's not the way it's meant to be. I'd much rather see Jesus face to face every day and grow and grow with him :) Give it up on your denominational bull. Christianity isn't the 'right' way. I go to MSBC... I'm a 'Christian' but not because I go there, but because I follow Christ. I love God and it hurts to know that old men are fighting for their little piece of territory and tapping someone on the back when they say something they like. It's just dividing you. Don't read The Shack and base your life around what it teaches. Take the relationship and yearn to be that close to God. Excuse me if I've been a little out-there... I'm not trying to attack anyone... cause the way I see it is everyone's problem is they all think that they're right. And that my friends, is Wrong. God bless all.
    P.S. I'll try to grow my generation as a Jesus loving one, not a denominational fail. I'm 17 and I'm so glad I have the chance to lead souls to Christ... isn't that what it's all about. If someone read all this and they didn't believe in anything, what do you think they would do, or feel? This collection of posts sure wouldn't witness to him, that's for sure. God bless you all :)
  • Shawn,

    As an 18-year-old, here's a word of advice: Try being a little sympathetic to the other side of a discussion.

    Your snide comments regarding Young not writing this book for Mr Lamprecht is a little, well, rude. I'm sure Mr Lamprecht is aware that the book is not written for him alone. Secondly, your view of what being a Christian is all about is a little lobsided. Indeed, it is a relationship with Jesus Christ, but allow me to use an analogy. If you had a girlfriend, could you honestly call it a relationship if anything you knew about her was a complete fabrication? No, we call that being deluded. It is the same thing with being a Christian - our relationship with Christ is built on the truths of Scripture. Young's book makes claims about how God is, what God does and how we are in relationship with him - all those things are important, and if someone is getting those things wrong, then it is highly important that those errors are sorted out.

    You seem to be hooked on having a relationship, but also seem to forget that the relationship is built on doctrine - truths which Scripture tells us about God, Jesus and the Christian life. Young distorts those facts, and distorted facts lead to a distorted relationship. Believe me, I am passionate about evangelism and reaching folks with the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but we don't water down that message or bend the facts to make God look more loving than Scripture reveals, even if it's nice.

    Finally, the unsaved person who happened to come across this post and yearned for the way of salvation wouldn't automatically switch off, because someone disagreed with a book. Give people a little credit...
  • John Page
    Shawn,

    Sorry to jump in, but I am genuinely interested in your argument. I hear similar logic quite often and I have never understood it. But I'm quite happy to be corrected myself if it's me that's got my thinking all wrong...

    You say these two interesting things:
    "...the way I see it is everyone's problem is they all think that they're right."
    "And that my friends, is Wrong."

    My questions would be these:
    Do you think that you are right when you make the statement that others who think themselves right are actually wrong? If so, how come you are allowed to think yourself right, but others aren't?

    Then you say (paraphrased), "Leading souls to Christ is what it's all about."

    Again, do you think that this statement is right? And if so, aren't you falling into the same "Wrongness" as all the unloving, proud "old men" that you're correcting?

    Hope that makes some sense,
    John.
    [A young (ish) man who is constantly having to check himself for being proud and unloving.]
  • FBA
    When I want THEOLOGY I will consult the Bible. When I want to read a novel (fiction, I might add) I read the novel as entertainment. C.S. Lewis' works spring to mind as do JRR Tolkein's. Any person who seriously pretends to judge a novel on the same level as Holy Scripture is simply misjudging. BTW, the author indicates in the preface that he may have erred in the "re-telling" of this fictitious story. Should he not be given the same leaway as the thousands of denominations that have a different take on some aspect of God's nature, dare I say on Theology? Picking at a piece of fiction doesn't seem to me to be a good use of time as we seek to build the kingdom of heaven. I'll let God decide who is theologically right or wrong. In the meantime I'll enjoy some uplifting fiction.
  • Steve
    Conclusion:
    For this book to create such a stir, it is either heresy or it has touched a Pharisaical nerve amongst the learned.

    I think a group study on this book would be good. Not to critique , but to see what spiritual truths could be enjoyed with fellow saints. Turn it into an edifying tool.
  • abclay
    A group study of this book? Nailhead meet hammer.

    "For the time will come when they will not tolerate sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, will accumulate teachers for themselves because they have an itch to hear something new."

    But, I'm just a Pharisee, pay me no mind.
  • HisDaughter
    I've read through a lot of these commments and found it interesting how quickly the comments turned from "The Shack" to so many other things.

    It seems just in general, that we, through this discussion as well as in life in general, seem too quick to place God in a box. He is the almighty, powerful, all-knowing, Creator, Savior, Sustainer God and too often we limit his ability to speak in whatever ways he wants to speak. Maybe for some people, the Bible is that way... I know for me, I draw SO much from His Word, but maybe God can use other events, circumstances, people, and yes, even books to reveal himself to them. Basically my comment is... let's not limit God. Yes, personally dig into books, compare them with scripture, etc. but even with that I don't think you can completley discredit the book because in posing some differing views, it has allowed many people just on this discussion board to search more into God's grace, salvation, wrath, love, depth, and character.

    Never underestimate our God!

    Thanks,

    HisDaughter
  • Steve
    abclay read Hisdaughters comments
  • abclay
    @ Steve,

    I read it when it was posted. I saw no need in responding because Hisdaughter did not bother to read and see that this "don't put God in a box" argument has been dealt with already. There is nothing new in her post. Rehashing the same arguments time and again is tiresome.

    Grace and Peace...

    abclay
  • Instead of "don't put God in a box" I have another solution.

    Don't put God in a book, He's already put Himself in one, the Bible.

    :)

    Mark
  • Shawn McGary
    ... you keep gettin stuff wrong bro. Don't put God in anything... that's idol ism. I do believe God's word is in the bible. :)
  • God became a man - that's a restriction on deity, from where I'm standing, Shawn...
  • cq
    Wow. This book is amazing. I think a lot of critics have their underwear on way too tight. It is fiction, it impacted me and I find it beautiful. Don't be so harsh, it is the annoying holier than thou people that make unbelievers afraid of coming to know Jesus and that is just sad :(
  • abclay
    @cq,

    So, that's the reason that people don't respond to the gospel... Thanks.

    All this time I thought that it was because the cross was foolishness to them or because they weren't Jesus' sheep and God wasn't drawing them to Jesus.

    Thanks for clearing that up.

    abclay
  • cq,

    If it's just fiction then why did it impact you so much?

    As to the rest of your comments. Let me get this straight. To theologically critique via the Bible a Christian book with many theological suppositions (fiction or not) is harsh? The critics are "holier than thou?" And this makes people afraid of Jesus?

    However, the unbeliever is supposed to be drawn to your approach of telling people they may have their underwear on too tight, are holier than thou, harsh and annoying?

    The Jesus of the Bible should bring about a healthy fear of God.

    Mark
  • Jan
    I am so glad I found this review site! I read the book, not really havng heard anything about it being controversial, but was VERY disturbed by alot of it. I don't know how you can read even a "fiction" book about God and not be disturbed by it when it is so wrong. I cannot agree with the doctrine, and it especially surprised me when "jesus" said he was not a Christian, and was not interested in people becoming Christians. Pardon me, but isn't a Christian by definition, a follower of Christ? This trinity seems more like a god that hollywood created, throwing in a bit of scripture here and there to try to make it sound good, but then contradicting itself in the next sentence, page or chapter.(reminds me of Satan quoting scripture to Christ, and twisting it for his own purposes) This is not the God of the Bible, nor the God I want to serve. The deity presented here is weak, sitting back and wringing his hands, hoping people will do things a certain way so he can use them for his plans. There is not worship or glorifying of God here. It's about being equal with God (We all have to submit to each other - God included - to demonstrate true love.)
  • Steve
    RE Jesus saying he is not interested in making people Christians. (Jan, you did not quote it correctly). See page 182.
    Amen to this statement. In the book the context is pointing out how "Christianity" and the "church" has become institutionalized. Religion seems to be about making people label themselves as something. Christians have fallen into that trap.
    The word "Christian" actually means a Christ-one. Just like my little finger is a Steve-one, so His intention is for us to become in actuality part of His life. To become one who is, in all reality, part of Christ in all our living. He wants us to be members of His family, transform us into sons/daughters, and to know Papa just like He knows Papa.
    Jesus, in this book, was rejecting the religious view of "christian". Much of America claims to be "christian" and they are by religions definitions, but are they members of Christ body? A Christ-one? Are they intimate sons/daughters of Papa?Being transformed into His Sons image? This is what the author is suggesting, and we need this message!
    I do not have all the answers, or the author, nor am I trying to over criticize comments, but there are excellent opportunities in this book to explore truths.
    I only know truth as I know Him.
  • Hillcrest member
    A 55 year old man just passed away at our church and at his funeral he askeed that a copy of "The shack" be given to everyone who attended his funeral. There was a book mark in the book that said "At the end of S.L.'s life he enjoyed sharing the gospel with "The Shack"....

    How could I not read the book with a recommendation like that and a free copy in my hand? At first I enjoyed the "concept" of the book, conversations with Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit. I even started to think of people I would share it with. As I got into the "weekend" red flags started going up for me all over the place. During Jesus' ministry on earth he kept pointing his listeners to the scriptures as God's word. I thought "Jesus" in the Shack made light of the scriptures. I saw this as a real opportunity missed by the author. He could have tucked scripture throughout these conversations with Mack.

    I also was disappointed that the plan of salvation was not laid out in a clearer manner. It certainly wasn't presented as Jesus did during his ministry.

    I just did not see this book as a way of sharing the gospel as the dear 55 year old man at our church did in his dying days. I would recommend it to a solid Christian as a thought provoking and heart warming story but not as a tool to share the gospel.

    I recently learned our pastor had the book pulled from our church bookstore though honored the request of this dying man to pass it out at his funeral at our chruch.
  • abclay
    I had a professing Christian friend tell me, knowing that I love to read theology books, "Tony, I have this book that you have to read, it's called The Shack." Interestingly enough, this friend does not hold a very high view of Scripture, denies absolute Truth and is not a regular attendee or member of any congregation.

    I think the popularity of this book among professing Christians is sad evidence of Packer's summation of the state of Christianity in America. Packer said, "American Christianity is 3000 miles wide and 1/2 inch deep".

    Sad but true...
  • Steve
    Brothers, do not be too opinionated. Praise God for those who have come to Christ through reading this book and the millions of Christians who are free to interact with the Beloved due to its encouragement.
    I rejoice over the transformation of 3 coworkers this week who cannot stop talking about their awesome relationship with Him and their daily interaction with Him. God used this simple book.
    I used to tear apart Billy Grahams ministry. I was a strong BJU, independent, fundamental, bible believing theologian. And I may have been right on some issues, but I was "dead right" My opinions and reasoning's were quenching my spirit and prevented His life from springing forth. Maybe right, but no life.
    One day I watched Him preach on TV , I could not stop weeping when I saw hundreds respond. The Lord used that to reveal to me what he could do with a man with whom I did not agree.
  • T LaRue
    You guys argue too much. I have been a Christian since I was eight years old. I have to trust that God, through the Holy Spirit, and due to the sacrifice of Jesus, came into my life at that point. That indeed is fundamental. Have I trusted Him since? NOT MUCH. Let me tell you a story. That book sat on my coffee table under another book until my daughter raved about it. I was going to go buy it until I realized it had been there all the time, on my coffee table. Now, personally, I live my life that NOTHING is circumstance, either the work of God, or the scheming of Satan, EVERYTHING boils down to that. So, I guess either Satan or God placed that book in my life. THANKS A LOT FOR MAKING DISCERNMENT A DIFFICULT TASK! Been a Southern Baptist all my life. It is refreshing to have someone speak of the personal relationship in such human terms. I congratulate most of you on your theological expertise but please don't limit God. He is bigger than all of us and can use books, videos, everything to reach people. I never had a Father in my life. DID YOU? The best Christian I ever met was a HOLY ROLLER, your term, not mine, he was just a Godly man. Did not wish to fight with him, I just watched him, HE LIVED IT. Good grief, do you really think that all of us have had the opportunities that you have had? I am so sick of the pretense of you don't do this, you don't do that so Go to Hell if you don't see it my way. Oh, and by the way, JESUS is LORD of my life, although I lack in service to Him, I do acknowledge Him as Saviour.
  • CK
    Those of us who enjoyed reading The Shack are not recommending it as a replacement to the Bible, nor as a definitive presentation of doctrine. It is a tool that the Holy Spirit has used to help me see the traces of legalism and my attempts at good works that still exist in my life. It reminded me that God loves and accepts me just as I am, bad decisions and all. The Holy Spirit is also using it to bring people to Christ. People who run from religious terminology that shows no understanding of the the struggles they face, that shows no love or compassion, but only judgment and a demand for conformity. Words are one way we communicate, and it is an important way. But we also communicate with our actions, the way we treat others. I hope every one on both sides of this discussion are acting in love toward the people we meet each day, and we are treating them with the love of God, not with our tendancy toward judgmental attitudes.
  • Steve
    T LaRue

    This site is nothing, there are multiple blogs on this subject alone creating division among the saints. My mother in law was deeply drawn to the Lord through this read and sought to share her enthusiasm at her local fellowship. The reaction was disconcerting. To encourage her I began looking online for insight to help her. The arguing,bickering and name calling surprised me, but I was able to encourage her to trust the Lords speaking, not as to whether the book was good or bad, but was his life flowing in her as a result the truths that touched her. She is flourishing in Him!
    As for me I find it ministering to rejoice in and share truths gleaned from this work without engaging in arguments. Praise God for your experience.
    And don't get to frustrated with it all. Most of whom we fellowship with in this matter are our brothers and sisters. Jesus said receive them as I have received you. MARVELOUS! Look at the multitude of believers on the earth who can connect so freely and fellowship via the web. May His oneness grow among us, and may we just use this forum to share the reality of Christ, and the peace enjoyed between the blood bought.
  • Steve
    Truths from the Shack: Revelation of the Trinity

    The servitude that occurs amongst the trinity in this book is most revealing . The character is witnessing a simple meal amongst the Father, Son and Spirit. At every turn there is unselfish earnest desire to wait on one another and they enjoy receiving service from each other. They exhibit perfect love!
    For example page 107-108 "To be in the presence of such love expressed...What was he witnessing? Something simple, warm, intimate, genuine; this was holy. Holiness had always been a cold and sterile concept to Mack, but this was neither."
    The trinity here is not weak nor attempting to be entertaining in its presentation, rather it is powerful and real. What does it look like to see the BELOVED interacting with one another? It is absolute perfect oneness, love, and holy interaction. And to think that we have been invited to enjoy this! To the praise and glory of His grace by which we have been made accepted into the BELOVED! Eph. 1:6
    The triune God enjoys one another. Through Christ we are brought into that enjoyment.
    Grateful we are for the doctrines of our faith, but they are not meant to be cut into stone, polished, and placed on the wall. The doctrine of the trinity is alive via Jesus. We have been brought into this fellowship. We can interact with them today. We have boldness by His blood to enter into that Holy place of fellowship. Cold, sterile doctrine makes us afraid, but this revelation of perfect love cast out that fear. Today may I express the nature of the Beloved as I interact with and serve others. By His life I can.
  • Jim
    The authentic gospel always sounds antinomian to some people. Scripture quoting will always sound like legalism to others if it points to justice. Grace might be more radical than the Protestant fathers had the grace to perceive. Justice might be more enduring than some today will admit. How funny that neither Jesus nor Paul passed out scripture in any form but fully managed to proclaim God who will not back down on grace or justice.

    My sister urged me to read The Shack. I read it in one night and went to sleep about eleven o'clock. As you know the killer is known in the book as the Ladybug killer. As I awoke the next morning after reading it I went into my sister's living room and sat down on the couch to have my coffee. As I started to rest my arm on the side of the couch I saw something on the armrest of the couch. It was just a little orange dot. When I picked it up it was a tiny little ladybug right there inside the house in the dead of winter. I know that is not a scripture verse or a well-reasoned airtight theology. Frankly I do not know if The Shack is good or bad. All I know is I was once blind to the ladybug but then I did see it the very morning after I read the book inside a home in the dead of winter. I will leave all this disputation of the scrolls and what they say about The Shack to you professional scribes. To be honest most lay people like me are really bugged by it but for those who have read a great deal of religious history I hear much worse things have been done to the theologically untrained than to merely disagree with them verbally. This argument here will go on forever as theological disputes have always done. Why? The foundational assumptions of the two sides are different and thus the arguments that spring from them must clash. One side is blind to what other side sees. Both sides think they see. It is this sight and blindness that got Jesus crucified by the religiously orthodox. I think most here would probably agree that accepting scripture as the Word of God is a gift of grace and that knowing Christ in the heart is an even bigger gift of Grace. I hope that this does not bug you. When the light comes on the darkness has to have some place to go but I will be darned if I can see it. I am a sales person and need to go to work.
  • Mark,
    Thanks for the review you posted here. I found it very beneficial, as I did also the longer one written by Tim Challies and posted at his site.
    It's disheartening to see all that flies under the banner of Christianity today. How wonderful to be able to rest in the truths of scripture and historic orthodoxy. Spiritual discernment is critical, as the Lord has told us.
    I know that your intent has not been to offend, but to exhort folks to weigh the book in light of scripture.
    We certainly need to be ever alert for that which is subversive to our faith and the revealed truth of God's word, however "eye-opening" it appears to be.
  • Steve
    Truths from the Shack: God revealed to us

    I must say the Father as an black motherly figure caused me to pause and feel uncomfortable. But I read on and was touched by this character. Many reviews express their discomfort as well, and address their distaste for it. John 1:18 "No man has seen God at any time" is oft half quoted in Shack reviews as an argument to this portrayal of God the Father, but when the disciples asked Jesus "show us the Father" He did not quote John 1:18a, but said if you seen Me you have seen Him (the Father)then He referred to the other half of John 1:18 --"the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him]". You want to see God? Look at me! Jesus is saying.
    So what does God look like? Well, when I say the name 'Jesus" what's your mental image? For most it is the pictures we've seen since Sunday school. How bout the Father? It is Gandolf like for most of us isn't it?
    For Mack He needed to know God as forgiving, loving,serving, helping, kind, and mothering...thus the southern black mama image.
    Our view of God is so often distorted. I doubt we will have a Mack experience, but the point of this portrayal is not for you to strive for such an encounter, but to experience the Father as your Papa, your Abba, your Mama in your daily living. Abandon the distorted images. Christ blood has brought you into this wonderful relationship. Your standing before God is identical to that of the Son. Amazing! Back to John 1:18 and chapter 14 where Phillip said show us the Father. Jesus in summary said,"You want to see the Father? Look at me always pushing into His bosom. My constant, interacting love relationship with Him. He is in me and I am in Him. Now through my work on the cross you will be in me, I in you, the Father in you and me, and we will be in the Father.(Wow!)The way I intimately know and see Him in this life, that's how you will intimately know and see Him.
    Thank you Jesus for giving us your relationship with the Father, and by your eternal grace help us to enjoy Him as you do: pressing into His bosom as a son/daughter.
  • THE SHACK is Unity/New Thought, posing as Christianity. I encourage people to familiarize themselves with the so-called Unity School of Christianity, or google the phrase "New Thought". The Wiki article about it isn't bad.

    We're not allowed to think anything about God we want, just because it makes us feel good. Believing something to be true doesn't make it true, even in the realm of religion.
  • Cyndi
    Thank you for the entertainment and education! this is the first blog I have read.
    ABClay~ You have a great deal of knowledge but I don't sense much love, and without love aren't we "nothing", I won't quote the verse because you know it. I have some dear reformed theologian friends to which we debate and that can be fun and also sharpen us all if we allow it.
    In some cases it seems to me that, reformers are more interested in pontificating, than in the actual purpose of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and it's saving power.
    You had an opportunity to share the gospel with Heisable and you insulted him instead. What is the point of using your biblical knowledge in this way? When you listed all those verses even I wondered....Psycho??.....
    I understand reformers thinking if we don't "hold the line, the line will be crossed and eventually destroyed and forgetten" but please don't run over souls in the process of being the literary godsquad. And for the record you guys are not always correct, no human being is.
    I will go back to love, anything done without love, is nothing.
    I learned long ago in Bible study Fellowship that we can not break one commandment to adher to another and think that God will honor it. You did not show Heisable any love or concern, he felt run over by you and you also supported his bad impression of Christians. Not good. I was thankful that Rose chose to help him.
    As far as the Shack. We will not know if it ultimately does more harm or more good. I understand and agree with both sides of the argument. After being asked, I had two Bible study meetings open for the discussion on the Shack. As the leader I was concerned, mainly because it is such a fad, and a bit sad that the Christian community rarely gets this excited over the Bible, but open to what God is capable of doing using this book. I was so impressed with the women in our group. They pointed out non-truths using scripture. They debated politely and respectfully. We all learned from it. Forgiveness and love were reinforced. Did anyone walk away with false ideas of GOd or theology? Perhaps, but we can all do that every week hearing a sermon. Because like my 75 year old reformed theologian friend said, as he bashed the Shack, we are all accidental heretics.
    I do though think we have become way too familiar with who God is. To think that the Hebrews could not utter His name, to taking upon ourselves to turn the Trinity into whatever we want it to be is getting dangerous.
    This is when I am particularly thankful for God's Sovereignty.
    Abclay~ Hope I didn't say too much. Use your knowledge for good. Did you ever see the movie Stripes? There is a line I quote sometimes...." Lighten up Frances!!"
  • ABClay
    Cyndi

    Thank you for reminding me about showing love. I will be the first to admit that I often am too eager to plead for fire to be shot down from heaven. My love for the truth as revealed in God's Word against heresy is something that I must learn to better convey in a loving manner.

    As for your claim that I missed an opportunity to share the gospel, I would have to disagree. I shared the clearest gospel that I could muster for heisable but he/she seemed to me to be more interested in arguing periphery issues. I believe that to those who are perishing, the cross is foolishness and those who claim "I would be a Christian if only ..." are clearly trying to rationalize with an unregenerate mind that which can only be "spiritually discerned" through the working of the Holy Spirit via the preaching of the gospel.
    I don't know the heart of heisable but my hope and prayer is that God will save him/her through His power alone. No amount of reasoning will ever cause someone to treasure Christ.

    Grace and Peace to you sister...
  • Cyndi,

    How do you "sense" love over the internet? Is it more or less loving of you to point out your perceived attitude of ABClay than it is for him to warn others of poor teaching in The Shack? Is it the perception of the language being *warm* and *comfortable* that which distinguishes truth and love? My daughter doesn't "sense" love when I correct her, but I love her no less.

    Heisable did not seem to want to really understand. Rather, he wanted to argue. I gave him a Gospel explanation to read through and then come back with questions. I even urged him to find a local pastor he could speak to in person with an offer to help him find the pastor.

    You said:
    I do though think we have become way too familiar with who God is. To think that the Hebrews could not utter His name, to taking upon ourselves to turn the Trinity into whatever we want it to be is getting dangerous.


    I certainly agree. Well said.

    Mark
  • John
    Brothers and Sisters,

    We are called to serve. We are called to love. If the folks who are so upset with the Shack were half as busy feeding the hungry and helping those in their community who are hurting rather than seeing how much scripture they can pile up to defend their position, think of how Christianity would be perceived? Probably wrong to make the assumption that they aren't, but if it walks like a duck....

    Some appear so heavenly minded that they have become no earthly good.

    Maybe I am naive, but I really don't think most people who read the Shack are pursuing a PhD in Divinty or that they are honestly thinking that a work of fiction can replace God's holy word.

    The book has me thinking that God loves me, that I don't (and this side of glory won't) fully understand Him, and I need to quit putting Him in a box and realize He might really want a deeper relationship with me. How will I develop that? Through more regular reading of scripture and praying.....not bad for a work of fiction!
  • Steve
    Now wait a minute. I can't believe one could come "way too familiar with who God is". I find myself and believe all of us in this blogsville could get more familiar with who He is, the Shack aside.

    Paul felt as much for the church:
    Eph 3:15-19
    For this reason I kneel before the Father,
    from whom his whole family in heaven and on earth derives its name.
    I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being,so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge–that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.

    Rom 8:15-17
    For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.”
    The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.
    Now if we are children, then we are heirs–heirs of God and co‑heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
    Col.2:10-11
    For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.

    And Christ after His resurrection:
    John 20:17
    Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father ,and your Father to my God and your God.' "
    Christ describing life after the resurrection:
    John 14:20-23
    Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him...My Father and I will love him (you) and manifest Myself to him (you).

    And Peter:
    2Pe 1:2-4 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature...
    We may be filled with His fullness, we can cry as Jesus Abba, He is our Father as He is Christ's Father, we are to be partakers through Christ of this divine nature, and The Father has made home, with the son, with the Spirit in me. Familiarize yourself with that.
  • Cyndi
    Abclay~ I apologize if I misunderstood Heisable's situation.
    John Mark~ "sense" as in overall "tone" of one's writing.
    And yes one's writings can communicate an overall sense of love, or anger, among other things.
    Steve~ "famililiar" as in "marked by informality, overly free and unrestrained, presumptuous- and yes we humans should reframe from that type of thinking towards God Almighty, Creator and Sustainer of all things. We are able to come to Him as Abba, but in reverant love with a deep understanding of our differences in that GOD created US.
  • abclay
    John,

    You wrote:
    We are called to serve. We are called to love. If the folks who are so upset with the Shack were half as busy feeding the hungry and helping those in their community who are hurting rather than seeing how much scripture they can pile up to defend their position, think of how Christianity would be perceived?

    Perhaps you have a misconception regards the most pressing need of humanity. If someone is dying of starvation and I give them a car, have I shown them love? What did Jesus become man for? Was it so that the sick could be healed? Was it so that the hungry could be fed? Was it so that the naked could be clothed?

    These things that you mention are important and are outworkings of our faith but no one is going to be eternally fed if I give them food, or eternally clothed if I give them something to wear. I submit that the best way that I can show someone the love of God is to tell them that they are hell-bound sinners and that Christ died in order that God could be righteous by declaring depraved sinners righteous.

    As to your concern about how "Christianity would be perceived"...What????? Do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? If we are doing our job, then the world will hate us.

    "If the world hates you, understand that it hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own. However, because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of it, the world hates you. Remember the word I spoke to you: 'A slave is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will also keep yours. But they will do all these things to you on account of My name, because they don't know the One who sent Me."

    Of course, there I go again just piling up bible verses to defend my position.
  • John
    abclay,

    I've spent many years in a denomination that tried to scare people into following Christ. Witness, get their souls saved, and move on to the next one. I've found that it creates a very shallow faith--if any. The best relationships are those that we truly invest time into--kids, spouse, etc. Why should it be different with those we wish to see truly experience Christ? Someone will be far more interested in hearing about Christ and the impact He has had on my life if I invest time in that person. Serving the poor and the homeless has become a "mission activity" that we do for a day once a year and then check it off our list.

    My point is that while serving the poor and helping the homeless is anything but convenient, we are called to do just that. I don't think that Christ would define that as "friendship with the world".

    You referred to this service as "important outworkings of our faith". Some folks spend so much time studying Christ that they leave little time to actually apply the red letters to their lives. If the Church was fulfilling it's mission, our communities would look vastly different. Wouldn't you agree? We were created in Christ for good works. That is not how we are saved, but if we are saved our actions should reflect that love.

    Fear doesn't drive people to reach beyond themselves and serve. Relationships do. That is why I think the Shack can prove to be a great thing for Christians. If it moves people toward a deeper relationship with Christ, one committed to living out our faith through "doing" the red-letter work instead of beating people over the head with fire and brimstone speech, then it served a wonderful good.

    We both want to see people come to know Christ--not just know about Him. Please accept that there may be more than one effective way to get people to Him and that a book like the Shack could very well help accomplish that.
  • ABClay
    @John,

    I am sorry that you took my comments about feeding the hungry and clothing the naked as being "friendship with the world". This was not my intent.

    You will see if you read my comment again that my mentioning the passage from James was in a separate paragraph altogether that dealt, not with doing "good deeds", but with your belief that Christianity will be perceived better by the world if we were more "missional".

    If we were more biblically missionally minded, we are promised just the opposite. The church will never be relevant to the world because the world hates God.

    It seems as if there is a tremendous concern among professing Christians that we don't offend the world, I don't understand this.

    You wrote:
    I’ve spent many years in a denomination that tried to scare people into following Christ. Witness, get their souls saved, and move on to the next one. I’ve found that it creates a very shallow faith–if any. The best relationships are those that we truly invest time into–kids, spouse, etc.
    I agree with much you say here but we don't create their faith, their faith is given to them by God through the preaching of the gospel. Then, we, as Christians are called to teach and instruct them with the Bible. This is called discipleship and I agree with you in this is how the best relationships are developed.

    I believe that we are "casting pearls before swine" if we think that we can "coax" the lost into believing by being nice or giving medicine. This mission paradigm is what causes "shallow faith" because this faith is not from God but from man.

    Grace and peace...
  • Cyndi
    I believe Biblical we are called to supply the physical needs of others. In doing so, we often build relationships. Sometimes this is what is needed to build trust in regard to salvation. THis is not being part of the world. Not being a friend to the world, does not mean that we want them to dislike/hate us, though at times we should be prepared for this response.
    ABclay are you a Presbyterian PCA Pastor? Maybe that isn't allowed in blog land, I don't know. I was a member of one at one time, and sometimes people learned this, US( saved-chosen) verses THEM-(not chosen)mentality. Sometimes even an anger about who is who, developed. THis made it hard for some to love and share the gospel. Sometimes people thought, why even throw pearls to swime when, GOd has already chosen anyway.--This doesn't line up with the Great Commission though.
    ABCLay you have a lot of knowledge but it seems like you are ready for a fight too often. People who believe differently than you or people who are not where you are yet, are not your enemies. They are also worthy of your time. I think if you could slow down a bit and offer more patience to people, you could do more for the Kingdom. You split hairs so often and sometimes I don't think that is what the person even ment. I am not trying to be negative, I just hate to see someone with so much Biblical Knowledge find so much to be critical about.
    We have much to share as Believers.
  • Bob
    Wonderful and delightful read. Remember it's Fiction. Should be read by all.
  • Bob
    The Shack was a great read. Should be read by all and remember that this is FICTION. My wife and I have both been discussing it ever since we read it. A must read.
  • abclay
    Sister Cyndi,

    No, I am not a Pres. Pastor. Presbyterians are not the only ones in Christendom who believe that God is sovereign. :-)

    On another note, you, like John, have chosen to associate my dislike for the "social gospel" (i.e. feed the hungry, heal the sick, clothe the naked) with the "friends with the world" comment, which I will say again, was clearly not the intent and context in which the phrases were used. It's very simple to go back and check.

    What doesn't line up with the great commission? Sharing the Gospel and making disciples?

    Bob,

    You are correct sir in your reminding us that it is just a work of fiction but the author makes his intent clear in the appendix of the book. His desire is that this work of fiction will communicate truths about God therefore insinuating a congruency with what the Bible says regards God's nature and this is not true.
  • Perhaps the book should have been subtitled "New Perspectives on the Trinity".
    Folks, abclay is quite right, and you probably ought to ease up on him. (Feel free to criticize me if you want though.)
    It is erroneous to think that reformed theology should lead to an arrogant attitude toward unbelievers, cold unloving knowledge, etc. Quite the opposite it true.
    Regarding the book, certainly God is fully capable of working through any means, with whatever outcome He desires (as Calvin himself articulated). He can even use a silly book to bring people closer to Him. But that doesn't mean we believers, who are commanded to grow in knowledge and exercise discernment, should read or recommend it. And if your argument is either that The Shack's theology isn't inaccurate, in fact misrepresenting of the Holy Trinity, or that it doesn't matter if it's theology is wrong, then I believe your quarrel is with the Word, not with any of us.
  • Steve
    Cyndi

    you said:
    “famililiar” as in “marked by informality, overly free and unrestrained, presumptuous- and yes we humans should reframe from that type of thinking towards God Almighty, Creator and Sustainer of all things. We are able to come to Him as Abba, but in reverant love with a deep understanding of our differences in that GOD created US.

    How can one judge another for being too familiar with God? What is your basis for saying what is "way too familiar" with God? Your definition describes Jesus. He was over familiar with God. He was "informal" and "overly free and unrestrained" and He was even "presumptuous" at times according to the religious watchmen of His day.
    Appreciate your response. Wish I could unfetter your mind from those limitations you place on your freedom to know Abba as Christ knows Him.
  • Dear Cyndi,

    Please stop impugning motives and intentions to ABClay. This is not about him personally. It's better to ask and let him answer. He has given you personal answers so there is no need to move the conversation back to him. Just as with ABClay, I too, am a baptist, but I know some great PCA pastors.

    Steve,

    I don't know why you are missing Cyndi's point. People become so "familiar" with God that they've lost a biblical fear of Him. This type of familiarity leads people to treat God with irreverence as if God is just our best buddy while "forgetting" that He is...well, God.

    Mark
  • Cyndi
    John Mark~ I will drop it.

    Steve~ The point on famililarity is in "knowing our place" Particularly before the Throne of God. ie: God is not our "co" pilot mentality. He is our PILOT, so to speak.
    The definition I quoted, is Webster's not mine.
    My original point was regarding the historical shift from the Israelites "not being allowed to utter aloud, God's Holy Name and using "Yaweh". to 2008-9, and Young feeling the freedom to change the Trinity to whatever pleases our senses? Do we think that this is really our right? I think that this has moved down "the slippery slope".
    I live free in Christ and have for many years, this is a separate subject though.
  • Steve
    Cyndi and Mark

    Just seems like your views of anothers familiarity with God are subjective.
    Cyndi-
    Praise God for the shift from the Israelites.
    I realize quote is from a dictionary, as I said. It defines Christ familiarity with the Father, as I said.
    As for trinity discussion, I find many believers think they got it figured out --need revelation.
    I accept your feelings on the matter as your opinion.

    Mark-
    I get her point, responding because I do not agree that's all.
    your statement: "People become so “familiar” with God that they’ve lost a biblical fear of Him. This type of familiarity leads people to treat God with irreverence as if God is just our best buddy while “forgetting” that He is…well, God."

    I'm sure this happens, but it is often subjective for you or me to judge others. Be careful. If God is my best "friend" is that ok? Is he my "father"? my "Abba"?
    or my "Papa"?
    When do I cross your line? How do you know when I'm irreverent?
    Is it when your uncomfortable? or Cyndi is uncomfortable?
    or when you think God is uncomfortable with how familiar one gets?
    Its subjective.
    I get your points.
    Let God judge who get to familiar with Him!
  • Nathan
    I agree with your review, this book is a very good way to find out who has true disernment and who is a passive believer in Jesus. We must test all things with the Scripture and this book falls very short of the bible. Do we dare say that God needs to tell us more than he has in the bible. no, then anyone can say that God spoke to them and told them to do whatever they feel like doing. Also this book protrays God as Gay, I am not saying the Author ment it this way, but in every culture in the world a guy kissing a guy on the lips is gay. So why put that into the book. When God was the jolly old black women Young didnt say anything about kissing on the lips, only when God becomes a man to Mac does he mention this. The Devil is very clever, you either put your trust in the bible or you will be deceived.
  • harmony
    I have always wondered, if the Bible is inerrant and the Word of God (instead of the Word of Man Inspired by God), why didn't The Almighty send it down in complete form to us with His only begotten Son? Why didn't He send His explicit expectations/salvation requirements for us on stone tablets like He did with Moses? He could have dispensed with all the metaphor and there would be no confusion about what a Biblical passage meant. We could then stop arguing the finer points of biblical theology and start the really hard work of living Jesus' commandment to love God and each other with all our hearts and all our minds. Truly, I am not trying to be difficult or accusatory. I am conflicted and wonder what other people think about this.
  • abclay
    "Harmony",

    The way that I understand the matter, the Bible is the Word of God, not because men didn't write it, but because these men were "inspired by God" to pen what God had revealed to them regards Himself and His plan for mankind.

    I would like to also note that the nature of God is not simply one of the "finer points of biblical theology" as you seem to indicate. The nature of God, the nature of the Son, and the nature of the Holy Spirit and how these three relate to one another is a major issue that delineates Christianity from pagan religions. An example of this can be seen clearly in the beliefs of the Mormons. They are not Christians because they deny the deity of Christ, which is nothing more than modern day Arianism.

    Truth as revealed in the scripture should never be sacrificed on the alter of "harmony" and ecuminism.

    I hope this helps...
  • abclay
    As an addendum to the previous post, the denial of the deity of Christ is one of the reasons that Mormons are not Christians. This mis-characterization of Christ is the root of other errors in their theology. I should have made that more clear.
  • abclay
    A pastor of a church recently took time out of his exposition of the Word and did a sermon explaining the heresies in The Shack.

    For the entire sermon, please click here. In the middle of the page, you will see a player, just click on the player to watch the sermon.

    You can also get a summation of the sermon by a rather animated Todd Friel of Way of the Master Radio here.

    Dr. Youssef does very good job presenting the problems with the book, and I encourage you to explore these links.

    Grace and Peace....
  • Harmony
    "ABClay",
    Thanks for your reply. I completely agree that the nature of God is "not simply one of the finer points of biblical theology", which I definitely didn't mean to communicate. The complete nature of God is infinite and ultimately unknowable by us during this time we have on Earth. I do think we can understand by glimpses and this is why I also look to the Bible to see what God has revealed to us in regards to Himself and His plan for mankind.

    You didn't really touch on what I was wondering about in your response, though. Many people believe that the Bible is the literal Word of God. I am not sure if this is a correct view or not for me, so I wonder: If God wants us to know Him and His plan for mankind in a literal manner, why didn't He send His requirements written down with Jesus like He did with Moses? Why does He speak in parable so often in the New Testament? Again, I am not looking to be contentious. I am confused and really want to know what others think.
  • abclay
    Harmony,

    You ask some very good questions that I feel are not easy to explain to any great degree without a long explanation.

    I will try to suffice by saying a couple of general things and if you wish, I can provide some helpful links.

    The only time that God "wrote" to mankind (I am almost certain) was, as you correctly pointed out, on the tablets in Exodus. All of the other writing in the Old and New Testaments was through the inspired writings of others. What did God write on those tablets? He wrote His Law which revealed His Holiness among other things.

    John tells us in Chapter one, that "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was with God." Later in the chapter, John tells us that the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us. We know this "Word" that John is speaking of to be Christ Jesus.

    Why would John refer to Christ as the "Word"? One possible explanation for this is because communication is done through words, and John was expressing the concept that the very existence of the Son of God was for communication. It is how God chose to express Himself to us; in the Deeds of Christ (God's Righteousness through Christ's keeping of His Law), in the death of Christ (God able to be righteous in judgment and also declare righteous those who believe on Jesus) and also in the spoken words of Christ.

    I don't know if this helps at all or if I am even addressing your question. Basically, my assurance that the Bible is God's infallible, all sufficient word to man is not based on the historical accuracy of the scripture or in the myriad prophecies that were given in the Old Testament and fulfilled in the birth/life/death/resurrection of Christ. My confidence in the Bible is something that is alien to me. I woke up one morning doubting if there even was a God and had a view of the Bible much like that of Rob Bell. Before I went to bed that evening, I was more sure of the sufficiency and authenticity of the Bible as God's word than I was about my own name being abclay.

    I hope this has not been confusing as it is late. Grace and Peace...
  • Harmony
    Dear Abclay,
    Thank you for taking the time to respond so late. You seem very passionate about your faith.

    I also don't believe in the Bible because of its historical accuracy or lack thereof. Although I haven't had a conversion as profound as yours, I require no proof either of its Truth. How interesting that you speak of your sudden experience coming to it as "alien" (coming from elsewhere), like Paul. I feel the Bible's Truth in my bones, like it has always been an elemental part of me, supporting me even before I understood it was there. Sometimes I yearn for an AHA! moment like you and Paul experienced. But then I think maybe God knows me well...perhaps I might not understand it like you did. I find it inspiring that God chooses to reveal His nature in different ways to different people!

    I wonder if that is why Jesus chose to teach in parables? Since mysterious parables throw out a larger net of understanding than literal commandments, maybe God can catch more "fish" this way? I wonder what you and others think about the matter.
  • abclay
    Harmony,

    There are many speculations as to why some of Christ's teachings are in the form of parables. The reason that Christ gave, however, is the only one that I can be certain of.

    His disciples asked him why He taught in parables and His response was basically an indictment against the rebelliousness of man. To His disciples Christ said, "The secrets of the kingdom of God have been given for you to know, but to the rest it is in parables, so that looking they may not see, and hearing they may not understand."

    Isaiah 6:9-10 Go! Say to these people: Keep listening, but do not understand; keep looking, but do not perceive. Dull the minds of these people; deafen their ears and blind their eyes; otherwise they might see with their eyes and hear with their ears, understand with their minds, turn back, and be healed.

    To the elect of God, a parable is simply a method used by Christ to convey divine truth. These have their eyes opened to see and understand the teaching. To those who choose to continue in sin and disbelief, the parables do not make sense.

    Here we see yet another of the prophesies of the Old Testament fulfilled in the ministry of Christ. In the teaching of the parables, we see a divine judgment being dealt out on those who don't believe. The minds of those who hear the parables and don't believe are made dull to the truth, the ears of those who hear and don't believe are made deaf to the truth.

    The ability to understand the parables, to understand the gospel, to comprehend any spiritual truth is a gift from God. This is reflected in Paul's teaching to the Corinthians as well. "the natural man does not welcome what comes from God's Spirit, because it is foolishness to him; he is not able to know it since it is evaluated spiritually."
  • Harmony
    ABClay,
    It always amuses me when I read the Bible that the Pharisees were the ones who understood the parables literally, that is to say with their heads, eyes and ears, but not their hearts. They seem so arrogant and dense! But to be fair, even the disciples oftentimes could not make sense of these mysteries, although they always struck me as more confused than rebellious.

    I had never really thought before of how the parables were approached by these two groups. Thank you for your inspired answer, for it helped further reveal part of God's wisdom to me. We can understand metaphorically or literally, or not at all, like many of God's elect, but we can never fully comprehend God's ways. I have always known this somehow, but your response helped this "knowing" to resonate in my core.

    Likewise, The Shack helped strengthen that "belief in my bones", that still, small voice in my soul, that the only thing we can come close to understanding is His Love for His creation and His insistence that we should fear nothing but life without Him. Both your and Mr. Young's understanding of Biblical revelations are limited and flawed, like mine and everyone else's. But I feel blessed to have understood God's nature a little better because of the both of you. May God bless you and all who seek.
  • Brooks
    The gospel of Jesus Christ does not start nor does it end with 'The Shack'. If you're concerned about one's salvation, don't give them this book to read hoping they'll get saved, use scripture. If you're looking for interesting dialogue and a different perspective on the love of God, by all means...enjoy it. Whatever you do, don't base your beliefs or convictions off this book. Quit trying to prove who's right...you can never get your point across by leaving comments on a website, just as I'm sure someone will take this post and try to convince me and every other reader that 'someone has to be right and it's me, so I'm going to write 49 paragraphs telling you why.'
  • abclay
    Brooks,

    I am thankful that Paul, John, Athanasius, Augustine, and Luther didn't take your advice.
  • Harmony
    Brooks and others,
    I can't speculate why other people write on these sites, only myself: I am curious about what inspires others. I understand and share your frustration with those who might be trying to "one up" others. But we all have a choice to not allow other people's convictions to affect our lives serving God. I could be "right" or "wrong", most assuredly both...about which theological matters, I cannot say. Since none of us know completely if we are "saved", we can only follow what we know personally to be true.

    I still can learn from those with whom I disagree. In fact, I normally learn more than I thought possible from those with wildly different viewpoints than myself. I don't think I would probably attend the same church as ABClay but there is no arguing that this man has spent a great deal of time and effort studying and building his faith. I respect that he is inspired differently than I am and appreciate that he might teach me something I have not already realized fully. I would hope the inverse would be true, but if not, no big deal. God is still God and I still get to learn and grow in Christ.

    People might think that I am doomed because I don't understand the Bible in the same way they do. Oh well! Although I have great hope that I won't be cast out of God's net, He gave none of us absolute confidence that we wouldn't. I still find a life in Christ valuable, whether I am guaranteed a "prize" in the end or not.

    Reading the hundreds of posts on this site, I am astounded by the breadth of knowledge people have to share about our Lord. Thank you all for deepening my understanding of God's nature and will for His children. May God bless you and keep you all the days of your lives.
  • Brooks
    abcclay,

    Thanks for not writing 49 paragraphs...and tuche, I agree with you whole-heartedly.

    Harmony,

    very good point. (I probably could have clarified my viewpoint a little better, but that was really my whole intention. And also, my comment was aimed at some of the 'middle of the page' bloggers (I didn't read most of the posted comments toward the bottom of the page, there are simply too many to read when you have two children under the age of 3 climbing all over you)). I was simply frustrated at reading post after post of people trying to convince their 'accusers' that they were right. Pesonally, I have only read 8 chapters of The Shack (I'm still reading..) and have found it quite good. I'm generally not a fiction reader, but find the interaction between Mack and God interesting. I understand though, why LifeWay gave me a disclaimer when I bought the book. There are quite a few things that I don't think are theologically sound, but that's not to say that the book hasn't helped me understand God's love in a different way. (Hence your statement that you've learned from people you disagree with).

    Anywho, in backing my original comment (again, not aimed at you bloggers at the bottom of the comment list), I was trying to say that there's no way to post everything you believe on just a few short comments. Granted, that believing the gospel of Christ is truly simple, it's just a question of 'how deep do you want to go.' The humor I find in all of this...including those who love The Shack and those who discredit it...it's like Mark Lowry said at one of his concerts while speaking to thousands of people from many different denominations, "Somebody's wrong!"

    I am no bible scholar, and do not claim to have the answers to a lot of questions, I'm just a lil' ole music minister from east TN that sometimes speaks (in this case types) before he thinks. Thanks for the comments, both of you.

    Your brother in Christ,
    Brooks
  • Harmony
    Brooks (aka lil' ole music minister),
    Hee Hee. I like the "Somebody's wrong" quote...I'll be chuckling about that one for a few days. It wouldn't be funny if it weren't true! (It makes me wonder how many people at the concert, if asked if they might be "wrong", would have raised their hand. My guess is there would have been perplexed multitudes standing there with their hands wavering at belly button level.)

    As for "typing before thinking", rest assured, you have absolutely nothing to apologize for. I completely understood/understand where you were/are coming from. When I was a Christian Ed Director and had two kids under six crawling all over me, I probably would have been hard pressed to name the four gospels. That season in my life is a gigantic happy blur. Hang in there! The next season will be on you before you know it.

    Thanks for your comments and humor. God bless you and your family.
  • Harmony, if you don't mind, I was just concerned about something you said (unrelated to The Shack, I think):
    "Since none of us know completely if we are “saved”"
    and
    "Although I have great hope that I won’t be cast out of God’s net, He gave none of us absolute confidence that we wouldn’t."
    If I understand you correctly, these comments do not line up with scripture, and concern me in that you don't believe in the importance of assurance of salvation. Perhaps I missed something earlier.
    Brooks, you wrote
    "that’s not to say that the book hasn’t helped me understand God’s love in a different way." As long as it's not in a way which is inconsistent with the love God has revealed in scripture. That's the concern some of us have.
    I agree with your comments about the comments, and I do want to sincerely add that I couldn't care less who get tagged with being right or wrong; I just desire the truth to be communicated and understood by all of us. In some areas God may have not yet revealed it, but in others He surely has.
  • Brooks
    In response to Darrin,

    Thanks for the genuine concern, and rest assured that the only book I take for truth is the Bible. Well, the bible and Schofield's notes (please note the sarcasm in my voice). I was just stating that even as perfect as I am (chuckle), I'd be the first to admit that I put God in a box. I do feel like at this point in my life - where I'm at in my relationship with God (if that makes any sense) - God has been using some strange things to show me how simple, and at the same time how infinite, His love for His creation is. I don't think I would ever recommend this book for a non-believer, but speaking for myself as a born again Christian, God has revealed things to me through the reading of this book that I desperately needed for spiritual growth. Before anyone criticizes...I'm not saying this book is the only way God could have revealed that to me, just simply that He has used it as a tool to speak to me. I would explain myself and situation a little more, but that would probably take about 4 pages of comments.

    I apologize if this makes my previous post even more confusing or if this post wasn't even necessary, I just felt like typing and I enjoy conversation (if you can call posting comments conversation) between fellow believers.

    2-legit-2-quit,
    Brooks
  • Steve
    Truths from the Shack: Knowing and enjoying the triune God
    Young has, no doubt, taken liberty in the Shack with the subject of the trinity. None of us truly understand the fullness of this doctrine, and This book has brought out how limited we are in our understanding of this matter. Some have struggled over the oneness of the Godhead and the lack of a hierarchical structure. Others struggle with presentation of the trinity as a family unit, suggesting a lowering of Gods glory and thus making God all too familiar. The purpose here is not to rehash opinions about Young's fictional presentation of the Godhead, but rather to ask "does this book reveal truth about the trinity that is practical for the believer?" I think so.
    Christians are to have a practical enjoyment of the God in their lives.
    John 14:20-23 says
    Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him…My Father and I will love him (you) and manifest Myself to him (you)...
    John 14-16 describes the trinity actually making home in us through Christ's work. They abide in us. Christ said I will be in you, you in me, and the Father is in me and I am in Him, and the Spirit will not abandon you, but will dwell in you, instruct you and make all these "abidings" a reality. Take a pen and paper and try to diagram Who is in who according to the Word. It's revealing. Do you enjoy God living in you? Do you enjoy His fullness as the triune God? Most I know see The Father orchestrating His work, The Son coming down to perform His work, and the Spirit coming in us to seal the deal. The Godhead becomes compartmentalized. They are outlined and doctrinalized into their work and function so hopefully we can understand them. But brothers and sisters are you enjoying the triune God?
    God lives in you! Yes or no? Which part of God lives in you? Some say, "Well the Father is on the Throne, the Son on the right hand, and the Spirit is on earth in the all saints." True! But they are God. You got one, you got them all! They all are in you according to the scriptures. "You are God's house" according to Paul and Peter, "Christ in you' the hope of glory" says Paul, and the Spirit is in our spirit making all this a reality, John quotes. Governmentally God is on His throne, experientially He is in my spirit to carry out His government and to be enjoyed. To fellowship with!
    The Shack presents God in His fullness and in perfect love as being enjoyed by a believer. We need to enjoy God in all His glory and as our family! This needs to be revealed in the body. We students of scripture can be so bent on defending our thoughts about a doctrine, that we miss truth (reality), we miss HIM!
    Do you know what Abba, and Christ, and the Spirit have been doing in eternity past? Its unknowable in its fullness, but I can tell you that they are the First family. They perfectly love each other- so much they are called the Beloved. They display love, they interact, care for, and fellowship wonderfully with one another. And I have been brought into this Beloved perfect family through their marvelous work.
    O Saints! We can enjoy God as He intended from before the foundations of the earth. Not as angels, but blood bought children sitting at the table enjoying Him in His fullness as members of His family. Heaven will be wonderful, but do not wait till then to enter in!
  • I've been a believer of Christ for over 25 years and I have to admit that my spiritual antennas went up when I started reading "The Shack". I'm pretty critical of just about everything I read,(i gave "Wild At Heart" by Etherege two chapters and tossed it) but I decided to give this a shot. I just finished the book last night, and although I may have had a few warning flags pop up as I was reading, the book really left me with a strong desire to know God more, especially when it comes to His love for me. It also has me re-examining my thoughts and actions concerning judging others and forgiveness. As I was reading, I couldn't help but think of the many, who are reading this book who either don't believe in Christ, or are "riding the fence". I can only think that this book would point them to Him, and would hopefully push them to ever so gently to seek Him even more.
  • Steve
    Truth from The Shack: Revelation of Good

    Several reviewers are bothered by the Spirits (Sarayu) discussion of good and evil. This review, like others, only quotes a small fragment of this conversation:
    i.e.
    “Both evil and darkness can only be understood in relation to Light and Good; they do not have any actual existence . . . Light and Good actually exist.”

    That is unfortunate: there are 8 pages dedicated to this subject (131-138).
    The Holy Spirit seeks to help Mack understand man's warped view of discernment. We, even Christians, tend to live according to the tree of knowing good and evil. We think we can tell the difference between what is right and wrong, or the difference between what is "right or almost right". We even use the Bible to justify our rightness. This is the realm of the law, of division, and of death. The tree of Life should be our existence. Christ has restored that tree with Himself as He enters our spirit and becomes our daily supply. His Word becomes "rhema" and is life giving in this way. His Life is truth/reality. Satan is a lie/not reality. Satan's attempt is, as in the garden, to cause us to live as God- trying to discern what we believe to be good and evil. In this sense we know and judge evil. We become discerners of what we think to be right or wrong. We lose touch with reality (Light, Good, Life = God, Christ in you), do not live by Him as our Source, and consequently remove ourselves from Life by this sort of independent living. We seperate ourselves from Him and plunge into real evil: drawing upon ourselves. This is death. The evil that we discern to be evil does not have real existence. That is because we become the source deciding what is good or EVIL. Who are we? GOD?
    Saints, just know Him. Learn of Him. He is truth, life, good. REAL evil (not what you "discern" to be according to YOU) will be exposed simply by knowing and drawing upon His life. This is what Sarayu was telling Mack.

    Jesus said, "Eat my body and drink my blood" This was a hard saying for followers of Jesus. Many walked away from Him that day.
    24/7 eating and drinking of Jesus means He becomes your constant supply of life. He is your tree of Life. Absolute sacrifice of the other tree (your discernment)is hard. Sacrifice of your religious ideas and systems of determining right and wrong. This is hard!
    But "Oh Taste and see that that Lord is Good."
  • abclay
    Steve,

    Before I say what I am going to say, I want to say that I say what I am trying to say in a loving manner.

    What you just wrote wreaked of gnosticism, mysticism, and general spiritual gobbly-gook.

    I felt like I should have shaved my head, configured my body in a yoga-contemplative position, closed my eyes, burned some incense and chanted for a while after reading your post.

    Maybe I am just not "wired" to understand all of the great "biblical" teachings contained in the pages of The Shack. I haven't been given the ability to ascend to that higher plane of understanding and consciousness.

    abclay
  • Vivien
    Steve,
    The only thing I can ascribe to you is the aroma of the way, life, and truth of Jesus. Thank you for your wonderful expression of this. A little while ago, God told me to stop trying to figure it all out and to engage in the mystery. Such has been my journey - to live in the joy of His spirit, to be truly alive. To engage in rich, trusting relationship with Him and to risk deep relationship with others. This is not to defy scripture or its relevance. In fact, I read the bible continuously and love it. It is to say that scripture is meant to draw us to freedom and have its end in Him. Take care.
    Vivien.
  • Steve
    It is ok abclay. Not trying to contend with you. My response to these reviews is just to do more than knee jerk when one line goes against our religious grain. Any good review deserves more than that.
    You seem to know the scripture, and I sense you know Him as your Savior. He, the writer of the Word, is living inside you. Do not separate the two. He is alive and living in us, leading us, prompting us in our spirit. You are wired with His life. If this were not so He would have told us, so since it is really true just abide in Him, stay in Him, live in Him. I would forgo the incense, shaving of the head, and cross legged posturing (too painful at my age), but brother, daily turning to His life within, opening up the word, and fellowshiping with Him about all things is what we were wired to do. The Christ in me loves the Christ in you.
  • Robert
    I must say, this book is certainly a wonderful phenomenon. What should have been a two hour read, took several days. I simply was neither mentally nor emotionally able to take it all in a single sitting.

    I have a Missy in my own life. My youngest daughter, Victoria Lynn, died a little more than a year ago. She was ten and I was truly broken. I immediately began cultivating an already shaky relationship into fist shaking, angry resentment towards God that has all but consumed me since that awful day.

    I am stunned with the healing and restoration that I have experienced while reading this book. My perspectives of forgiveness and relationship have been literally ripped from my soul and replaced by a truth so beautiful I simply have no words to describe how I feel.

    To those who criticize this book in any way I would like to say this. You have certainly played a very important part in spreading the word about this beautiful story and for that I thank you. I pray that God sends you a blessing as intense as the one He has sent me through this beautiful book.
  • Fly_Molo
    Wow, this is a wonderful thread. I have to give Mike some credit for fighting the good fight on this for a very long time. Not that there weren't others, but wow, that's a lot of effort to put out there.

    I wasn't personally a big fan of the Shack. I liked it well enough, but I critique it more on grounds of taste than on theology or literary merit. But I'm not a big fan of Pilgrim's Progress either, and it's critical and theological merit is beyond any doubt.

    I can't help one final point though. Unlike Islam, we are not a religion, "of the book." The Word of God is not the entire religion, it is a revelation of a living being that we must have an actual relationship with. The Shack brings that point home in a very powerful way, and from what I read on this discussion, that's a point that desperately needs to be brought home to our Christian community.
  • FM,

    Mike fought "the good fight"? If it's the Mike I was reading, I'm not sure that's an accurate representation of his content nor demeanor. Of course I'm not about to reread the entire thread, so apologies to Mike.

    Regarding your final point, I don't think that Christianity's troubles are due to being too much in the scriptures, but not nearly enough. (I realize you didn't say that, but I'm making a related point.) Indeed they should lead us to a vital relationship with the living God, but remember that they themselves are "living and active". I would be concerned about insisting we are not "of the book" - certainly we are not Muslims, but neither is their book God-breathed. The Christian life requires the Word and the Spirit, and the written Word is currently God's primary source of revelation to believers. Some on this thread seem to attempt to divorce the two, and opt for mystical, therapeutic personal revelation, whether or not it is consistent with the Word of God. The scriptures then take a lower place, whereas they are our one solid foundation of truth given by which to measure all things. The importance of this cannot be overstated, especially today.
  • Betsy Carlson
    It is too bad that so many comments have been inspired by such an insipid book. It is shameful that people would argue about who is right about which belief.

    The author clearly has marginal writing ability and utilizes spirituality to sell books - It's all about marketing!

    I am sure the Mr. Young is a "nice guy" and all, but his book is a long essay on a silly fantasy.
  • abclay
    Betsy,

    I appreciate your discernment in seeing this book as a long essay on a silly fantasy but I disagree with your assessment of this discussion as shameful.

    I think the fact that people desire to defend Young's gross misrepresentation of the Godhead, sin, etc. speaks to the need for having such a discussion.
  • A Nachreiner
    I have just finished the book and truely feel it was a wonderful book. People who have lost loved ones can feel some sort of reasurance. Many people whether you believe or not will question God about why he takes our loved ones. We don't always understand. I am a true believer and yes some things in the book aren't what is totally said in scripture but I don't think that is what the author was trying to do. To be totally honest I felt alot of relief after just loosing some loved ones. I wouldn't say I was mad at God but I did question him and after reading this book it made me see a different side of things. So for people to judge the book I don't truely see the point. It is something there that people can relate to in one way or the other. I just think people are not seeing the true reason he wrote this. So if people can relate to something and help feel a stronger relationship with God than why judge. I am sure everyone has lost a loved one and needed one thing to get them back on track and remember why God is here and why he does the things he does.
  • Steve
    We need a better understanding of discernment.
    Note above
    Betty's quip regarding the Shack is appreciated as discernment, but her word on this thread is deemed as a personal "assessment".
    Why is it that when someone agrees with us they have "discernment" but where they don't it is considered their wrong "assessment"? I bet Betty could find many verses to show the divisive, unloving, ungodly, and unedifying aspects of this thread. Backed by a raft of scriptures would that then be "discernment"? I guess only if we agree with her, otherwise it's just another assessment.
    This is what I was alluding to earlier--living by our own view of determining what we think is right, wrong, or almost right (even Scripturally) sets US up as THE final authority--only those who agree with our view are right and have true discernment. All others have wrong assessments.
    True discernment is simply learning to see something as He sees it. We need the Word and, well, sorry, but we need that "mystical" Spirit. As Darrin said, you can't separate the two, but brother you can't divorce the Spirit from the Word either.

    Jhn 16:13 When he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:
    Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.

    ...so I will ask us again: Have we got on our knees and poured out our heart before God and spent time with Him regarding this matter? Have we asked Him, how do you see this Lord, what do you think of this matter (ie. the book)?" What is He saying to us inwardly?
    Or have we gone straight to our stronghold of doctrinal views and opinions about what we believe and just start defending/arguing/condemning with our "rightness." We may be "right", but we are "dead" right without His leading.
  • Steve,
    So you're suggesting that God's Spirit may lead us into concepts that are in disagreement with God's Word?
    If so, you tread on dangerous ground - be careful. Evangelicalism is already headed in that direction: it's OK to compromise the scriptures a little bit, if it proves to help people in some way.
    Or do you really think that the doctrines we profess are just "our stronghold", and not the Lord's?
    By the way, if anyone would prefer a scripture-based text for dealing with suffering, one book I would recommend is "Crook in the Lot" by Thomas Boston.
  • Steve
    Betsy not Betty
    My apology
  • Steve
    Darrin
    No, Not sure how you got that idea,I love the Word

    We can be right about a matter and back it up with scripture galore, but if our source is our self it is dead. Jesus came that we might have abundant life. That life does not flow just because we are saved or quote Scripture. His Life is in me. I need to contact that Life. Draw from that Life. His life will not contradict His written Word. His life becomes a living epistle written upon my heart for all to see.
    I do not know the hearts of all who post here, but with some you can sense a strong opinion. A "I am right no matter what you say" attitude. More than defending the book, I am drawn to use it as a means of encouraging bro and sis to touch their spirit and commune with Him before we judge so harshly.
    Our opinions and reasoning CAN become strongholds. We need to cast "down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;"
    "Doctrines" can definitely become strongholds. You and I probably agree on the pillars of the faith, we may differ on some aspects, but may people see His Life in us foremost. If they see Him I believe they will see The Truth, The Way, and The Life. Right doctrine will follow.
  • Steve,
    I think we do have much in agreement. And I do appreciate the truths you have expressed, as well as what others have said here by way of testimony of how God has helped them, whether via this book or however He chooses. I think I wrote previously that I certainly believe God can and may well use this book as a means to teach people or draw them to Himself, perhaps overcoming false notions of
    religion they may have been burdened with.
    But, again, the importance God expresses in His word of our knowing who He is AS He revealed Himself, and of upholding all the doctrines in His word (Jesus: "teaching them ALL that I have commanded you"), leads me to appreciate and agree with John Mark and others here who express concerns about the book. My comment about the Word wasn't directed at you, brother Steve, but at the book in its erroneous doctrines as have been expressed in the initial post here and in other places.
    Your last statement about seeing Him, and then "right doctrine will follow" - I see there is truth there, brother, but on the flip-side, I am convicted that right doctrine will lead to seeing Him, when accompanied by the Holy Spirit. I'm concerned about the church - I know my flesh - and I believe that we can seek spiritual things without a solid grounding in the Word, perhaps expecting that the doctrine will follow automatically. But it doesn't - we/they need to be diligent to learn and understand the truths delivered once for all, and judge everything else we encounter in life by them. Seasoned with grace, absolutely, but without compromise, as difficult as that is for me in this dark world.
  • nancy
    Darrin,
    I agree that we should follow God as He has revealed himself in the Bible. However, how can you be certain that you understand the exact way He would like to be revealed? When Jesus said, "I am the Truth, the Way and the Life" and the only way to the Father, how do we know His exact understanding of the Truth, the Way and the Life? Can it be only your understanding that is "right"? How can we be sure that when He says He is the only way to the Father that this only way is how the conservative church understands it to be? Or that this only way is how the emerging chuch understands it? I get so confused. Outside of the Ten Commandments which are quite literal, why do we all have to endlessly debate scripture? How can we completely know for certain what God is communicating?
  • Nancy, thanks for sharing your concerns.
    Sincerely, "my understanding" is of no value, just because I possess it, and if I am wrong in any of my beliefs, I certainly want to know and rectify them.
    But you have to be careful. If we can't be sure what the Bible says, what was the purpose of God giving it to us?
    So much of what often passes as Christianity is easily refuted by the scriptures. You mention the emerging and conservative churches: surely the one is full of biblical contradiction, but the other is not perfect either. And neither are we as individuals, so we may not in this life fully comprehend what you refer to as "the exact way He would like to be revealed", but we are to be as precise as He gives us grace to be! And we are to be diligent in growing in that precision.
    Please don't fall for the common notion that we can't understand the Bible, or that most disagreements have no resolutions, etc. If we are diligent to read and learn, in context, "line upon line", and we are His children, led by His Spirit, God will teach us great things from His Word. And we can't ignore the great preachers and teachers of the past - the church fathers and historic orthodox ("straight praise") Christianity are extremely valuable in helping understand the scriptures - otherwise we run the risk of "reinventing Christianity every Sunday", as one historian has astutely observed.
    Do I think that all doctrinal questions are easily answered, or that I have all of them - absolutely not. But I know that God has shown me much, especially through the last couple years as doctrinal contraversy has come upon my life and church. And I believe that as I seek Him in His Word, He will continue to bring light to the cloudy areas. But it must be in the Word that I look for the answers.
  • Steve
    Nancy
    As Darrin said, thank God for church fathers who shed their blood for the truth.
    One thing for sure, the Scriptures point us to Jesus.
    This is why I believe it is so important to know the reality of Christ in us. The Life within matches the written truth. As we read the Word the Spirit within says "Yes". We will see Him in the Word, We will trust the Word. We will accept all those who have Christ within, not because they agree on every dotted i or crossed t, but because they have "Christ" in them. He becomes our focus. He is sufficient.
    Nancy, He is the centrality of all things in our faith. He himself is the way to the Father, He brings us God's Life which He deposits in our spirit, and He is the truth: He make all of this a reality within us.
    Seek to know Him in the Word, read the Word with this purpose. Quit trying to strain out the truth with your intellect or categorize others views as right or wrong. Seek the simplicity of Christ. Count all as loss to know Him! The Word will come alive and become clear.
  • Vivien
    Steve, you are a breath of fresh air.
    Vivien.
  • Nancy
    Darrin and Steve,
    What kind and thoughtful answers...thanks. You are both at peace with your faith and it shows.

    Darrin, you are a shining example of someone who loves God with all his heart and mind. I must respectfully disagree, though, with your assumption that there is no purpose in the Bible unless we know precisely what God is revealing to us. I am sure of what God is revealing to me. I am not sure of what He is revealing to you. But faith and understanding are two different matters. This is why people argue over scripture--they mistrust each other's understanding of God and therefore don't trust one another's faith. I trust your faith, Darrin, even though our "precise" understanding of the Bible may differ.

    Although I think that the Bible is central to my understanding of Jesus and God's nature, I do not believe it is a complete revelation. God is too big an entity to be entirely contained in man's written word of Him. What would we Christians do if the Bible were stripped from us and we were sent into exile as happened to the Hebrews long ago when they were taken from their destroyed temple? Without the Bible, could we still consider ourselves Christians? I believe the answer is a resounding YES. We would weep and mourn its loss, we might wonder if we could survive so far away from where God "resides", but we would persevere and our faith would continue. Emmanuel lives with us. To echo Steve's statement, HE is sufficient...and I delight in His way, His Truth and His Life. Peace be with you all.
  • Steve
    Darrin, Vivien, Nancy
    This latter fellowship has been refreshing to me.
    It is good to simply enjoy Him, our oneness, and refrain from other mindedness.
    Nancy, Heaven and earth may pass away, but I do not think His Word will ever be lost; but as you said, He will be with us, even until the end of this age. No matter what happens the Scriptures reveal that the church will be sufficiently supplied to overcome.
    The Spirit and the bride say "Come Lord Jesus"
  • Nancy
    Steve,
    To what you said so eloquently, I can add nothing but...Amen.
  • maggie
    Wow. You people scare me. I've read this book, though I'm no theologian,I enjoyed it. What I got out of this book is the ultimate love of God, our Father and forgiveness of our fellow man. I'm not deep. Just searching. This is not the end all of literature of course, but a book that might engage many in the flock. To read the discourse above.....it's no wonder people are still searching.
  • Nancy
    Maggie,
    That's a pretty broad brush you are using to paint everyone who has contributed to this site. Please consider that each individual is "searching" in their own way, some perphaps more deeply or more superficially than the next. We all deserve basic respect, though, no matter what our beliefs or convictions. Come join the discussion and learn something. We aren't all that "scary" once you get to know us!
  • rose
    Religion is dangerous. Religion would rather debate about healing and salvation than see somebody healed or saved. Religion would rather argue about deliverance than see somebody set free.
  • Nancy, your words about me were too kind. I only wish that were true of me, to His glory.

    If this thread ends, or at least my little part in it, I'm glad if it can do so on a cordial note.

    I would just leave a challenge, which was probably given above by others:

    There seems to be some tension here between the concepts of a Spirit-filled life (along with loving Christ, sensing His love for us, loving and helping people, etc.) and a diligence to follow scripture (studying the Bible, growing in a deep understanding of what it says, proclaiming sound bibilical doctrine, judging things by the Word, refuting doctrinal error, etc.).

    I would strongly challenge all of us that there need not be a choice between the two - we can embrace BOTH, and in fact are commanded to do so.

    For if the two are not joined hand-in-hand, I would question the validity of either one.
  • Robert
    Thanks for the review. I wish I would of known about this before I purchased the book. Its going in the trash. I'm not even going to give it away or sell it. God Bless
  • JAC
    Hey to all. I just spent the last hour or so reading a good portion of this blog. To those of you who wish to hammer away at the details of thology--I understand (partly) your point of view. I have spent years studying, thinking, agonizing over the fine details of theology. Some of my study was formal, but much was informal. The formal cost me dearly. I do not feel that my study was wasted, but I will say that it never brought me into intimacy with Jesus. I longed to have the theological details honed to precision, but precision never brought depth of relationship. It was only after my life imploded that Jesus and I really connected in deeper ways. In fact, it was my lack of precision--my complete and total lack of togetherness that finally brought me into the beginnings of intimacy with the Word made flesh. My comment here is from my (limited) experience of Jesus as the Way, Truth, and Life--correct doctrine doesn't necessarily result in deep relationship. We all like to think that our understanding is correct, but from my experience, Jesus meets us in our deepest need rather than in our greatest theological understandings. I would encourage my sisters and brothers to meet each other here in weakness rather than in strength.
    Love to my friends in the Family,
    JAC
  • JAC,

    I think your comments will provide a good illustration to those of us who have problems with The Shack.

    My comment here is from my (limited) experience of Jesus as the Way, Truth, and Life–correct doctrine doesn’t necessarily result in deep relationship.


    When it is claimed that - Jesus is the Way, Truth and Life - this is correct doctrine. If we divorce the "correct" from "correct doctrine" we are still left with doctrine. Our relationship with Jesus will always be based on some sort of doctrine. If this doctrine is not correct in as much as He has revealed Himself in Scripture then upon what is the relationship based?

    I do agree that someone can just have intellectual knowledge of correct doctrines while at the same time not having a loving relationship to Jesus. Though I would also say that this person does not actually believe these doctrines, but just knows them.

    On the other side, someone can believe they have a deep relationship with Jesus (i.e. Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses,etc.), but have incorrect doctrine. This incorrect doctrine may make them feel better in some ways though they are actually denying Who Jesus actually is. (Cf. Romans 10:2-3)

    We all like to think that our understanding is correct, but from my experience, Jesus meets us in our deepest need rather than in our greatest theological understandings.


    On what basis should I accept your experience and not dismiss it by saying that you just like to think that [your] understanding is correct? If ones understanding only comes from their own experience then why discount whether or not one really understands?

    You have also implied that Jesus meeting us in our deepest need is our greatest theological understanding.

    I do agree that Jesus meets us in our deepest need. That need is salvation from sin through the Gospel by grace through faith. When He meets us and saves us He does not leave us there.

    Mark
  • Steve
    JAC
    Sounds like you just started enjoying Him rather than just studying about Him.
    The revelation of Christ within!
    I know many independent,fundamental students, ministers who knew all the systems of systematic theology but did not know Him, and then as you as you described He opened their eyes: The Word became alive, old hymns had new meaning, God's eternal purpose was clearer...
    Jesus is the center of all things. He is preeminent! He is all and in all. Continue to Proclaim it! Your message is clear.
    I will not "Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
    That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
    The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
    And what [is] the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
    Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],
    Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
    And hath put all [things] under his feet, and gave him [to be] the head over all [things] to the church,
    Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all."
  • abclay
    Bro. Steve,

    *tongue planted firmly in cheek*

    I agree with you. Let us cast aside those cold doctrines and have faith that God will grant us a special revelation outside of the Word. Let us "let go and let God". For a "real" knowledge of Christ isn't in the words of men written two thousand years ago.

    This worked well for Joseph Smith, Herbert Armstrong, Charles Taze Russel, David Koresh, Jim Jones, etc.

    *tongue removed*

    I know that you aren't advocating the above extreme, nor anything close, but I do believe you are unwittingly advocating the tearing down of the walls of historic orthodox credal Christianity. When these walls are dismantled, as they have been for many "churches", and mysticism, spiritualism, and neo-gnosticism have taken hold, the only path is a serious and fatal heresy in a fashion reminiscent of those carried out by the aforementioned "prophets".

    The author of this review used Scripture to point out some serious problems with The Shack. I find this "contending for the faith" to be scripturally mandated.

    Maybe I am just a "Bible Nazi", but I find myself "enjoying" Christ more and more simply by studying about Him. Every new revelation through the Word regards what God did for me through Him grows my love for Him more and more.

    I am aware that everyone is not blessed with the same ability to study the Word as others have been, and I know that no one has any gift that they didn't first receive. In the same vein though, I believe that God graces people in the church with gifts for the exhortation of believers so that they may be presented as a "pure virgin" to Christ at His coming. It is then my responsibility to listen to what they say, compare it with what the scripture says, and then submit to their authority if they are correct.

    Grace and Peace...
  • JAC
    Dear abclay,
    I admire your love for Scripture and enthusiasm for the Truth. You seem to have a God-given ability to think clearly. You also seem to have a deep belief in the reliability of Scripture and it's relevance to the present issues of sin and the errosion of popular belief in absolute Truth. I love the written Word of God, and will quickly tell you that all that I hold dear depends on the authenticity of what is revealed therein.
    I would ask you to consider the gentleness of Jesus. It is very true that He at times spoke very hard words to the religious hypocrites who refused to see the Presence of God among them. But Jesus was also called the friend of sinners, whether that sinner happened to be a thief/murderer hanging beside Him on the cross, a woman taken in adultery, or a hard headed disciple. Jesus also was gently compassionate with the hypocritical religious right. When they finally had their way and crucified Him, His only recorded prayer for them was "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." To date, Jesus in His love and compassion has reached untold millions with salvation, hope, and new life. It seems that your profound respect and love for Scripture would not overlook the amazing love and compassion that Jesus showed for those He drew to Himself.
    Blessings,
    JAC
  • Steve
    Hey abclay
    Can not see what I said to JAC that provoked such words.
    I was not talking to you, I don't know you, your background or your training. Nor was I questioning your love for the Lord or His Word, or you love for Him as you read the Word. ??????
    JAC had a great testimony. Touched by it and could relate.
    Lighten up.
    I can appreciate church history, can't always trust it. I can trust the ageless Christ, the Word, and the fact that the writer of the word happens to be present with me always.
    I won't play ping pong with labels and accusations with you. It is not good.

    If you thot my words to JAC were labeling you you're wrong. I fittingly was describing myself and it sounded like JACs experience as well.
    P.S.
    I do not think this review on the Shack touched very many Scriptures. A weak argument using fragments of book quotes and partial scripture quotes without exploring the context of either, expressing opinions mixed with interpretation of truths. Not saying he is right or wrong, but not a thorough exegesis of the subject matter. But this is water well run under an old bridge.
    I'll not engage anymore in it.
    I will enjoy the testimonies of grace as they appear.
  • Jan
    I just wanted to say I read the book, and enjoyed it very much, I never expected the author to be exacting in all he wrote, he was conveying , love and relationship, healing and forgiveness. I guess the way to read this book for some would have to be that you are truely grounded in the word of God and then you would not expect this book to become your source of truth.
    Respectfully Jan
  • flor
    I did not read this book as a Study Book or as I read the Bible. The Bible is Truth, but, I loved the story, I loved the way they didnt put GOd in a box.

    As Christians we live in a shell a glass house and the Law. Christ is freedom, love and Im not going to preach Hell to people and because of the fear of going to hell they'll love Jesus? I don't want anyone to love me because they're afraid of me? Silly Christians. I fell in love with God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit and His Grace Mercy and Redemption which can't be earned, or merited. I am free to Love GOd, read good books, enjoy life and still live a Holy Life without fearing that we have some Big God will come and strike me like an ant.

    We are loved, while we were YET sinners, he died for us, how much more now that we are HIS? I loved the book, it was about forgiveness, the love of the father and CHrist's Redemption. I have discernment, but Im not Religious and I don't live in the LAW, I live by Grace Daily.
  • Steve
    Flor and Jan,

    Enjoyed your words. We can't limit the relationship that the Father has for us/with us: reminded me of a hymn we used to sing in church:

    "We all might think that God is up in heaven, In the clouds He dwells in golden halls , Up there all alone just sitting on His throne, But God is longing for His wandering people , He wants His people.

    From all the lands He's calling out His children, Those who walk in solitary ways, No matter where you're from, Since He loves you , you can come, Enjoy God as the Father in the family. Come on in-- We've been waiting for you.

    In the book the final revelation, God comes home at last on earth to dwell. All problems flee away, Cause God is here to stay, You can hear the family calling hurry home.
    We love you Father--Hear us calling, We love you Jesus--Hurry Home."
  • Elsie
    What a shame that we human beings cannot accept & celebrate each other as the individuals God has created us to be. How sad it must make HIM to see us ridiculing & criticizing one another. All this controversy would make one think deeply & be very cautious when merely giving their personal testimony of God's free gift of Mercy & Grace to them. Do we now have to check our every word to be "theoretically correct" or do we walk in the freedom of Christ Jesus our Risen Saviour & boldly trust in HIS SPIRIT as HE moves us. I believe the scriptures Philippians 1:12-18 where Paul tells the brethren that he rejoices that no matter what conditions Christ is preached, what is important is that CHRIST IS PREACHED! I for one do NOT want to face the Lord at judgment and try to explain to HIM my reasons for attacking this wonderful child of God who is planting seeds to share the gospel in his own individual way. Proverbs 3:5 tells us to trust in the Lord and not to lean to our own understanding. No wonder our Lord hates pride so much. It tears HIS creation down. Personally, this FICTIONAL work of Wm Paul Young has uplifted & edified me spiritually more than anything outside of the BIBLE. After all, isn't that what we're supposed to do for one another? (Lift each other up?) Honestly, as a parent...how it would devastate me to see my children picking each other to pieces like this. Shame on all of us!!!!! Allow God to be magnified & glorified through this. Praise His Holy Name.....He is worthy of all our praise!!!!! Really now, can we expect everyone to be a theologion. I'm pretty illiterate but God still loves me and I accept HIM as a little child! Please Lord, let me not be a stumbling block or hinderance to any of your children. Consider HIS prayer in John 17 and then present your reviews. Let me not be guilty of professing godliness but denying YOUR power. I surrender my right to try to "fix" others. Only YOU have the power to transform lives in whatever manner YOU choose. Thank You for granting mercy to me...in Jesus Name I humbly give You Glory. Amen
  • What a shame that we human beings cannot accept & celebrate God has He has revealed Himself to us in Scripture. How sad it must make Him to see us praising & uplifting an image of God that we’ve made from our own image. All of this controverting of who God is should make one think deeply & be very cautious of how He is portrayed when merely giving their personal testimony of God’s free gift of Mercy & Grace to them. Do we not have to check any word or do we just assume “theoretical correctness” based only on personal experience? Do we walk in the freedom of Jesus Christ trusting His Spirit to move us in the direction which goes along with the Scripture He wrote? I believe that if the Gospel is preached clearly regardless of motive as Paul states in Philippians 1:12-18 that I will rejoice. I also believe Romans 10:2 where Paul tells the brethren that people are sincere, but also wrong. I for one do not want to face the Lord at judgment explaining to Him why His word was not a good enough description of Himself and of how to explain the Gospel. Acts 17:11 tells us that even the apostle Paul’s teaching was testing by the Scriptures. Also, Ephesians 4:14 tells us to be careful about being tossed around by every wind of doctrine. My brother Wayne who wrote this review was doing just that. How dare people come here and criticize his critique since he was just following the biblical commands! He was lifting up other Christians as Ephesians 4:15-16 says by speaking the truth in love to build up the body. Whether we like it or not everyone is a theologian. Whatever we believe about God is theology. Lord, let me present the Gospel clearly that it may be a stumbling block to the Jews and foolishness to the Gentiles as Paul wrote in 1 Cor. 1:23.

    Grace and peace,

    Mark
  • nancy
    JohnMarc,
    Okay. We get it. Your theology is God's "theology". You understand the Bible perfectly. The rest of us who may have differing views, don't get it. You don't make God in your own image but the rest of us do. Your motives are true and you follow Biblical demands. You have the scripture to prove it but the rest of us who choose alternate scripture are just mistaken and forsaken. We, the sad lot who are inspired differently than you, will be very sorry when we are before God. We will have to explain to Him why we chose to be inspired by His love and compassion instead of following the letter of His law. We are doomed from getting into the Gated Community in which you will retire. We now fully know this because you have explained it many times on this site. We really do get it. Now will you stop beating this very dead horse? Thanks.
  • Nancy, that was quite unfair and unkind.
    Mark's response was fashioned according to Elsie's attack, and was a very appropriate response, I believe.
    Think about what is actually being said, and please don't put words in people's mouths.
  • Elsie
    Brothers John Mark & Darrin,
    Thank you both so much for "enlightning" me with my errors. In my fumbling human ways, I feel compelled to uplift God's children. I am a 60 yr. old "toddler in Christ" and you reveal to me that I erroneously thought our Jesus knows that we must learn & grow like a "little child". Your comments have revealed very clearly to me that it is wrong to take ANY human portrayal as truth. And to me, that would include any and all Biblical helps or aids; reviews, comments, sermons, etc. If you both are the men of God and have the "spiritual knowledge" that you portray yourselves to have, then would you please pray earnestly for me that God would reveal Himself to me in the same way. That is NOT meant to be sarcastic whatsover, it is a genuine plea for Godly wisdom & undertanding. I truly do NOT desire to lean to my own understanding. Everytime I have, I have always fallen flat on my face with humiliation. Praise God, though, He let me know that "MY PRIDE" has to be surrendered. Brothers, please accept my apology and remember me in your prayers. I will stick strictly to the Holy Bible.
    And to Sister Nancy,
    I appreciate your support and completely understand your human response to want to retaliate but retaliation really is a "fruit of our human pride & ego". (Believe me, I know....I stand GUILTY). I humbly ask that you, too, will accept my apology for enticing you to respond in the controversy. In my spirit I believe that your intentions are the fruit of attempting to uplift those who are of less fortunate educations and I thank you.
    I will leave this forum with the following from the NKJV Bible: [I pray that is not offensive to anyone]
    Colossians 2:2-4 (Paul's prayer for believers)
    "That their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, and attaining to all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the knowledge of the mystery of God, both of the Father and of Christ,
    in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
    Now this I say lest anyone should deceive you with persuasive words".

    It is not by works of righteousness that I do that I am saved but rather by HIS mercy & grace...
    Your sister in Christ,
    Elsie
  • Nancy,

    You attributed things to me that I never said nor claimed. I have pointed to and continue to point to God's revelation to us about Himself which is found in the Bible. I'm sorry if I rubbed you the wrong way. Why didn't Elsie's post bother you? Was not mine written along the same line of thought?

    See, without the Bible, I don't know if you're mistaken or if I'm mistaken. That's why I go to the Bible as the arbiter of truth. We may disagree on our understandings at some places, but let us hash it out at that level. If we don't, it just becomes a battle of uninterpreted experiences.

    And, Nancy, if you really do get it and I'm the one beating a dead horse then why are you all repeating yourselves? In case you haven't noticed, I am only *responding* so who is beating the dead horse again?

    I am no better than you or anyone else. I am but a sinner saved by grace in spite of myself.

    Mark
  • Hi Elsie,

    I was responding in kind to show another side or part to the things you were saying. I did not mean that we cannot take any human portrayal as truth. I'm saying that to understand God in our lives is to use the lens of Scripture. For example, 2 Cor. 10:5 [We are] destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and [we are] taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ, (NASB).

    Neither of us have to take a position of the extreme either/or which is really a reductio ad absurdum position. This position can be seen when you said:
    And to me, that would include any and all Biblical helps or aids; reviews, comments, sermons, etc.


    I wasn't arguing for that. I was answering you on the same grounds which is in the same manner in which you replied. I'm arguing for a biblical lens.

    I got to talk with an unbeliever for a while this morning on the way to work. I gave him a ride as his car was just totaled. He had is own idea of who God is and what God can or can't do. If left to his own experience as *truth* then he would have just as valid a position as the next person and their *experience*. There would be no real grounding for understanding. I explained a few things from a biblical perspective in our short time. Lord willing, I will get to witness to him some more.

    I do appreciate you stopping by.

    Mark

    If I had just left him to his own experience of what he thought God did or didn't do
  • nancy
    Darrin is correct. I was unkind. I had a bad day as a single mom (my husband is in Kuwait for 8 mos) and I got frustrated and acted on that frustration. I am sorry for stirring up the pot and causing more contention than unity about our Lord. John Mark, I am certain that you are right with the Lord--your faith is admirable and obviously strong.

    I was not, however, unfair. I have been reading these posts for a long time and those by John Mark and his conservative brethren more often than not ask those more "liberal" posters to recognize the authority of the Bible, meaning the authority of their own interpretation of the Bible. Even those people with decades of studying and living the scripture are dismissed. It's condescending and it makes me frustrated. If anyone says they liked The Shack, we get an instant lecture about how we should only take inspiration from the Bible...as if the author hadn't done so, nor anyone who enjoyed parts of the book.

    For the record, I believe the book to be poorly written and sometimes an infantile representation of the Trinity. Other parts moved me greatly and made me really think about my relationship with God. Most people who have written a favorable post about this book had a similar reaction. No one said, "This book should replace the Bible".

    It's admirable to say, "I don't like this portrayal of God. I don't like how the author argued this point. I think the Trinity can't be explained in human terms. I think the author's vision is flawed." It's not okay to scold those who praise it for any reason, constantly reminding them that their understanding is not good theology. This is the dead horse of which I spoke...

    Let's discuss (instead of lecture about) parts of the book that were especially "good" or "bad". Let's argue passionately about our opinions. Let's use the Bible to back up our arguments, as well as other texts, sermons, etc.(Perhaps we could even graciously acquiesce a point to another person once in a while, i.e. "I see why you think what you do...I don't agree but I understand why you would think that.")

    Let's NOT intimate that those who disagree with us do not recognize the authority of the Bible. THAT is unfair.
  • mick
    Hey fellers,
    I'm just country boy and 'minor leaguer' with this comment blog but just wanted to say that I read the Shack & really enjoyed it. Yeah, it's fiction but for me it planted a seed in my mind that it just might be possible to really have a personal 'spiritual relationship' with God via Jesus. I mean literally! Maybe God ain't some far far away Being that we have to jump through hoops to reach or study & analyze till we're blue in the face. Since Mr. Young said that it was initially wrote for his youngens', I didn't expect it to be a book in literary competition. I realize most of ya'll must be college grads & I'm out of my league for sure but God is no respector of persons & I was taught He died for all. God is a Spirit & must be worshipped in Spirit & Truth. Jesus' death, burial & resurrection has power to reveal Hisself to anyone, save them & keep them though His Word. Yep, I know, He is the Word eg. Holy Bible. I can read the Word in the human realm & not understand but in the Spiritual realm, through Him my spirit can understand.
    I'm not too smart but I can tell you this. Ya'll have certainly contributed a lot of free publicity for this book. I wonder if that was your intent?
    Thanks for listening.....& look forward to seein' ya' in God's Kingdom where they'll be no need for critics.
    Happy debating,
    Mick
  • Elsie, I'm praying for you as you've requested.

    Nancy, I'm concerned about your statement that conservatives here ask others to "recognize the authority of the Bible, meaning the authority of their own interpretation of the Bible." That would seem to imply that you believe these truths are unknowable, thus we cannot distinguish between correct and incorrect interpretations of scripture. Go back to the original post showing biblical problems with the book - are these arguments not provable through scripture?

    And remember that the passion many feel here is not just because a fictional novel was biblically inaccurate, but because the Godhead Himself was misrepresented. Folks can call it fiction all they want - the problem is that when a writer portrays Him, he portrays the ultimate Reality, and so he needs to be on target.

    I doubt that Mark or any of the others believe an interpration is correct just because it is "theirs". But they believe that truth IS knowable through God's word, and through diligent search His children can understand what He has revealed. I hope some can see how strongly and subtly post-modernism had affected the church: We act as if truth is relative, can't be known, and anyone who says it can is mean and divisive. Consider if Satan can wreak havoc with such a perspective.

    I'll pray for your husband in Kuwait and for your family while he is away.

    Mick, I don't think the book needs our help at publicity. It's a smash hit.
    "look forward to seein’ ya’ in God’s Kingdom where they’ll be no need for critics" - true, because there won't be misrepresentations of the King of heaven up there.
    I like the redneck accent in printed form you accomplished, though. Funny.
  • nancy
    Darrin,
    I am curious. In the entire book, The Shack, did not one thought/idea/representation please you? In this forum, I have read few, if any, "conservative" Christians admit that pieces of this book were wonderful. On the other hand, many "liberal" Christians have acknowledged that some of its theology seems flawed from their point of view.Yet they spoke to the fact that parts of this fictional book brought them into a closer communion with The Trinity. In a typical conservative manner, the baby is thrown out with the bath water because any acknowlegement of agreement with the opposition means "impurity" and thus needs to be washed away. Although I think this is unfortunate, it doesn't mean a conservative Christian has more or less of a true understanding of God than I do.

    As for your concern that I think Biblical truths are unknowable, your suspicion is both correct and incorrect; Correct in that I believe that Biblical Truth is known in each soul, individually, because that is how God made us. We are not robots. He speaks to us each differently and we are given unique gifts to love Him and His creation and glorify His name; Incorrect, because I also think, as stated in Corinthians, that "For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known."

    The Bible is reflected in the mirror because it is a part of our earthly existence. You will not convince me that what you believe is authoritative or vice-versa, because we both see the Bible dimly in a dark mirror.

    Again, I call for one another to worry less about defending Biblical Truths and more about living them. God doesn't need defending. He's a big boy with big ideas that eclipse our miniscule understanding of Him. We can help others, as JohnMark did, to see their faith in a different light but we should not expect them to see it exactly as we do because we are all so very small. I love being insignificant...then, all the authority rests in Him.

    Thank you for your prayers. Even though we may disagree, I believe that God speaks truly to you and I am honored to receive this blessing.

    God bless you and keep you all the days of your life.
  • Steve
    Elsie,
    Your response is refreshing, and your responses to the critics are gracious. You are more mature than you suggest ("toddler"). Nancy may have had a bad day, but some here (both "sides") can be cleverly demeaning and unnecessarily unkind in order to share their opinion. She was trying to defend you. Our gut reaction is to respond with like tactics.
    Don't leave distraught. Share your heart for others to enjoy. Some will refute but others edified.

    All
    John Mark said, "How dare people come here and criticize his (Bro Wayne's)critique..."(read above for context) and for those who keep referring to his original post as backed by Scripture, I'll say it one more time:
    "this original review on the Shack does not touch very many Scriptures (only 4). The arguments are weak using fragments of book quotes (i.e. 1 sentence quote when 10 pages deal with a topic) and partial scripture quotes without exploring the context of either, expressing opinions mixed with interpretation of truths. Not saying he is right or wrong, but not a thorough exegesis of the subject matter."

    Many of these posts disagreeing with bro Wayne are not personal attacks. I hope we know that. Disagreement does not always have to be in the realm of attack, especially amongst family (bro/sis).
    If we did not want his views discussed, this certainly is not the forum. Elise views are just as precious as his words, even if we do not agree with either of them.
    The "how dare we" comes into play not with simply agreeing or disagreeing with someone, but, as Nancy evidenced in her apology, the words and tactics we choose to use towards those who "dare" to differ with us. We as believers have a choice.
  • Nancy,

    I will pray for your family and your husbands safe return home.

    Steve,

    I hope you realize the reason for my words you just quoted.

    All,

    Doug Wilson said some good things about The Shack. Though he also went on to say this concerning what he sees as some very alarming problems:

    And this brings me to the way in which this book was simply terrible, blasphemous. But before going on, I have to hasten to add that it is a peculiar form of evangelical blasphemy, one that is well-intentioned and naive. I remember one time I was at a conference where the group I was with was sharing the venue with another group. So one time I sat in on the chapel services of that other group, and they began singing "Spring Up, O Well," which was fine with me. But since the song involved water, somebody had developed hand motions, and jumpy-up-and-down-motions. So there was this room full of adult Christians jumping up and down while they were singing, splish splashing along. But then they got to a verse where it was all about the blood of Christ instead of water, and they continued right on with the hand motions and the jumping, and the only thing missing was the rubber ducky, and nobody blasphemes like an evangelical can.

    In a book clearly written to deal with the pain of fatherlessness, how does Young go about it? He makes God the Father, "Papa," a large beaming African American woman (p. 82). The Holy Spirit is a shimmery Asian woman named Sarayu, mysterious and "way out there." Jesus is simply Jesus, and is masculine after a kind, but in that unique way possessed by camp counselors and youth ministers with muscular forearms.(Source)


    Mark
  • Steve
    John Mark
    Sorry, I don't fully understand. That is why I am pointing out the original posts lack of Scripture/context--to understand your basis for being so defensive?
    And your example of alarming Christians is to show what in connection with the Shack? I hear a man describing a a worship environment in which he is uncomfortable. He is describing it with obvious bias as to how we should worship. Maybe I would be uncomfortable too, I was not there. Learned long ago that my uncomfortableness does not always negate the value of worship. Maybe they were just as excited about the washing capacity of the blood? I do not know. What is the point? What do we gain from another man's bias?
    Is he describing the trinity here or are a you? Again, opinions,instead of scripture.
  • Steve,

    You've lost me. Let me re-phrase. Do you understand why I wrote the following?

    My brother Wayne who wrote this review was doing just that. How dare people come here and criticize his critique since he was just following the biblical commands!


    Mark
  • Steve
    If you mean literally what you wrote than yes I understand. I know his (bro Wayne) intentions was to warn saints of "another doctrine" , but good intentions do not mean we are correct.
    If you mean something else than I'm lost.
  • Steve,

    I was just writing a like-minded response to what Elsie wrote above my comment in question. It wasn't really meant as a defensive "how dare you" response. It was more of an illustration. :)

    Mark
  • Steve
    Hey all. I told my 21 yr old son about this site, disagreements, differing views, etc. Later I found he had already wrote the following to me hours before our conversation:

    "Do not waste your time with talk that has nothing to do with God or is not somehow forwarding Gods purpose. Its often times hard to tell where this stops and starts. God is the one who can show you. Through spending time with him and listening. Its a hard thing to determine and depending on who you are talking to the rules change. That is why there are no definite rules just God. If you are not following this you could mess some people up. But do not think you will make a huge impact against God because your power in talking to people was never in you. It was God working through you. Remember those people who you talk to also have relationships with God and they should be checking everything you say with God. And the ones who are in a relationship with God will know to not listen to those parts of what you say. SO again you can only do so much against Gods kingdom.
    Don't argue aimlessly. I struggle with this because i enjoy debating people. Its fun. But so is sin. Its only fun to my flesh. Its hard but i must just let that other person win. Its ok. Have you ever had someone argue with you and then tell you something completely unrelated to the argument but you still wouldn't listen to anything they say no matter what subject. Imagine arguing with someone over dinner table etiquette and then you try and tell them about the eternal life with Jesus Christ. Ha. Much harder. Still possible through God but much harder. Do not argue with people for pointless reasons. It is sinning. Now if someone is wrong that is fine coach them gently. With love. Love only God can bring about. Even your tone of voice can be harsh and that is not good. There is a guy whom i have semi-bible studies with. He is amazingly knowledgeable but when i am wrong he says in a stern voice-that's incorrect because..... This is a hard pill for me to swallow. He is right but it hinders our relationship because i feel like i should be quiet because i dont want to be wrong. Its ok to be wrong.
    Thats why God gives us a spirit to hear him and mentors to guide us. But gently. The same way God does. When you hear Gods voice does he just yell at you immediately when you do something wrong? HEY YOU! THAT WAS NOT WHAT I TOLD YOU TO DO! I SAID GO HERE!!! no. not at all it is a gentle nudging toward the true path. that same love and kindness God shows us we need to show to others. We cant do it though. its not in our human nature. We need to go to God and through God daily to get this skill."
    2 Timothy 2:14-26

    An unintended rebuke to me and with that I bid adieu.
  • nancy
    John Mark,
    Thank you again for your prayers. It makes my heart light to hear that people care when others are going through a trying time. Although my husband is not directly in harm's way, it is hard to be away from my beloved.

    I am grateful for your posting of Mr.Wilson's words. I disagree with them wholeheartedly, mostly for the reasons Steve already mentioned. BUT, I think I understand why you posted them: You wanted me and others to know that, even though the author is "misguided", at least his intentions were good. I can respect that opinion because it affords respect to others.

    Thank you for the effort to meet on the middle ground even though we may never agree with one another's theology. It was a small gesture felt greatly in my mind and heart. God bless you and keep you,
    Nancy

    P.S. Steve--I wish I had had the maturity at 21 that your son possesses now. Surely, this is the fruit of a graceful upbringing, both by his earthly and heavenly parents. Children are certainly a gift from God since they teach us the full meaning of joy and humility.
  • Steve,

    Thanks for sharing the response from your son. I have some questions and comments. First though, I wanted to share with you my recent conversation with a stranger. I even talked theology and Gospel with him as I witnessed to him. Read the story if you like: A Conversation.

    “Do not waste your time with talk that has nothing to do with God or is not somehow forwarding Gods purpose. Its often times hard to tell where this stops and starts. God is the one who can show you. Through spending time with him and listening.

    How does one spend time with God in such a manner? Through what and/or how do we "listen" to God? What does it mean to listen to God?

    Its a hard thing to determine and depending on who you are talking to the rules change. That is why there are no definite rules just God.


    God is a God or order which means there are rules and propositions. If we are reasoning based only on ourselves and our own experiences and we come to different conclusions about the same topic one of us is wrong. Hence, God gave us the Bible to which we can go to to settle such differences.

    If you are not following this you could mess some people up. But do not think you will make a huge impact against God because your power in talking to people was never in you. It was God working through you.


    Does he mean here that people themselves will be messed up but not their relationship to God? I'm not clear on what's being said. Upon what do we test whether or not God is working through someone?

    Remember those people who you talk to also have relationships with God and they should be checking everything you say with God.


    How is this checking done?

    And the ones who are in a relationship with God will know to not listen to those parts of what you say. SO again you can only do so much against Gods kingdom.


    How will the ones in a relationship with God know those parts? On what basis?

    Don’t argue aimlessly. I struggle with this because i enjoy debating people. Its fun. But so is sin. Its only fun to my flesh. Its hard but i must just let that other person win. Its ok.


    The arguments here haven't exactly been aimless, but it is just that through which the "aim" is taking place that is in question. I don't really enjoy debating people as I once did in the past. For example, my "aim" is to correctly teach my lost relatives who follow Joseph Smith about the Jesus of the Bible and His Gospel of grace. In as much as I enjoy sharing Jesus it hurts me to no end that they reject His Gospel.

    SNIP
    Do not argue with people for pointless reasons. It is sinning. Now if someone is wrong that is fine coach them gently. With love. Love only God can bring about.


    Again, I don't believe the reasons here have been pointless.

    Even your tone of voice can be harsh and that is not good.


    This is true, but much harder to discern over the internet.

    There is a guy whom i have semi-bible studies with. He is amazingly knowledgeable but when i am wrong he says in a stern voice-that’s incorrect because….. This is a hard pill for me to swallow. He is right but it hinders our relationship because i feel like i should be quiet because i dont want to be wrong. Its ok to be wrong.


    This is unfortunate and someone should correct this person. Either his pastor or someone should approach him with Scripture. Maybe you could give your son this Christian Criticism article and he could use it to approach this man.

    Thats why God gives us a spirit to hear him and mentors to guide us. But gently. The same way God does. When you hear Gods voice does he just yell at you immediately when you do something wrong? HEY YOU! THAT WAS NOT WHAT I TOLD YOU TO DO! I SAID GO HERE!!! no. not at all it is a gentle nudging toward the true path. that same love and kindness God shows us we need to show to others. We cant do it though. its not in our human nature. We need to go to God and through God daily to get this skill.”


    While there is truth in the above Jesus also wasn't as kind "sounding" as we all like to think sometimes. We know the Bible speaks of a righteous anger so we are able to be angry and not sin. Paul and Barnabas had such the disagreement that they split up. Jesus didn't always have the nicest words for the religious leaders and called Peter "satan."

    I do not doubt that we Christians who disagree about some elements of The Shack are just that, Christians. I don't dislike anyone for liking the book either. I just believe, as does my pastor (and many pastors), that there is enough in the book to warrant a warning. Thanks for participating here.

    Peace to you,

    Mark
  • Steve
    John Mark

    My son wrote this before I even discussed this site with him. It is not a response to you or anyone regarding thoughts about the Shack. He did not even know about it. Please do not take it that way, He sent it via email with other thoughts on a passage in II Timothy. (I think he is working on a message for a college group or something). I took it as a word for ME to heed. Now, I WANT to get in the realm of dissecting every phase of my sons words you just quoted and responded to in your last post, but it's OK--you win.
    But please remember to keep your elbows off the table and chew with your mouth closed.
  • abclay
    Steve,

    Your son may not have written it for this discussion or for your participation in this discussion, but you applied it to this discussion when you posted it and pronounced it as a "rebuke" to you and bid us adieu. Now you are going to be smarmy and not answer johnMarks questions regards what you took his arguments to mean? johnMark has been nothing but patient with all of the posters (especially patient with me) and you to tell him to "keep his elbows off the table and chew with his mouth closed"

    I thought that johnMark's comments were restrained considering the vacancy of any substance in the arguments that you posted. How does God talk to him? To you? To anyone?

    And Nancy, what did you find "mature" about this admonition to his father? Sounds like the cart is before the horse to me. If I said those things to my father he would just smile, shake his head at me and say, "come here son, let me show you what the Bible says."

    Hogwash...that's what it is. Writing this I realize you are going to come back with the ad hominem. Tell me how rude I am, how "unloving", etc... Well, they hated my Saviour, why should I expect any better. I am sure that the Judaizers thought that Paul wasn't very nice either.
  • Nancy
    ABClay,
    I thought it was mature of his son to think, at 21, that arguing for the sake of argument is an unwise endeavor. That's all.

    Steve stated clearly that this was an "unintended" rebuke of him. In other words, it was my impression that his son was not being presumptuous, or "putting the cart in front of the ox". Steve mentioned that his son had written this as an assignment and passed it along. Steve read it and realized that it resonated in his life at that moment. His son had no idea it would have that effect on his father.

    My guess is...you read the elbows off the table remark and hit the roof. I understand why that would make you angry. Rudeness abounds on this website. Sometimes it is very difficult to not respond to someone in a like manner (see my apology to John Mark many posts back), especially when you are having a trying day.

    I just read, and very much enjoyed, John Mark's post on giving criticism. (The only thing I would have added to this wonderful list is a gentle reminder that an apology can go a long way if criticism is imprecisely applied.) Perhaps we would all benefit from reading and digesting this wise post.
  • Steve
    ACCOUNTABLE FOR MY POSTS

    ABclay, Whoa bro...

    As John mark said earlier it is hard to discern tone (and other things like humor) on theses internet posts.
    My sons email spoke to me and stopped me. (I was wanting to engage in a back and forth with John Mark.) I posted it to explain that primarily.

    Abclay, I left out scripture references my son alluded to in his email and I edited out 2/3 content. So that may have helped you if I would have posted it all.

    And your remark "the vacancy of any substance in the arguments you posted":
    It is funny, but WE ALL think our arguments have substance and the other guys doesn't. This is our subjective nature rearing its head.
    ABclay, I have tried to go toe to toe, criticism by criticism, demand scripture, etc... EVERYBODY'S STILL GOT THEIR OWN OPINION in the end. Darrin probably does the best job of making peace and loving the other and closing down the arguing. I, like my son said, love the debate--I'm ready to give people a street corner and say lets meet there and settle this--I'm wanting to prove you wrong and I want others to see it. To that unedifying heart (mine), bro, I bid adieu.
    ABclay, if my son's words speak to you or others regarding our rants ok. If not then fine. I do not think every word of it was intended for this kind of forum, I do not know everybody's heart, but I know mine.
    As for the "you win" and the table manner reference, read my sons "entry" and you will understand my attempt at humor. If you find this offensive (or John Mark) I am sorry and I guess a good example why we oft get misunderstood in this venue.

    ABclay, my sons words were not an intended admonition or rebuke. He wrote this without our having any prior discussion about this site. He was up late enjoying fellowship with God and wrote ideas down. He sent much of it via email to share his enjoyment with me. UNKNOWING to him it rebuked me/ spoke to me. But I would gladly count it an honor to welcome any admonition from my son. (sorry to all for the in depth explanation).
    ABclay, he is maturing. If you would have seen him less than 2 years ago you'd know it. Now he is spending time with the Lord (that includes the Word) till 2am and emailing me his unedited thoughts (i.e. his post). He is immersed in college ministry at NAU and is preparing to go to Africa for a 1 year mission trip.
    (Thanks for your words Nancy. Bless your husband.)

    John Mark your response was kind and I just wanted you to know why my son sent it. Yes I posted it, but was not primarily applying it to the general nature of this site. (I was not trying to say this site is wrong by posting it), but as a message for each individual heart (me first) to consider about their words and motives.
    Whew!
  • angie
    For those who have gone through some terrible things and have been angry at God this is a great read. Forget about Theology and all the other stuff. When it really gets down to it does all of that really matter anyway?
  • abclay
    Angie,

    You wrote:
    Forget about Theology and all the other stuff. When it really gets down to it does all of that really matter anyway?
    I beg you Angie, Reconsider. For when it really gets down to it, what we believe about God is the only thing that really does matter.

    abclay
  • All kinds of alarms started going off when Mack met the 'Trinity' and they started talking. The dung started piling a little too high. I decided to see if Reviewers got the same negative feelings about the book.
  • L
    Angie
    Agree with your initial response ("For those who have gone through some terrible things and have been angry at God this is a great read"), but the study of God need not be discarded to still come to your conclusion.

    RUT
    Respect your conclusion. All reviewers who agree with you come from the same bias, and bias abounds. Are those alarms your bias or your spirit.




    Re
  • abclay
    "L"

    Regards your comment to Rut, are you suggesting that all opinions are equally valid and should be taken with the same weight regardless of their bias?

    Should I go to Christopher Hitchens to get a review of the Gospel of Matthew?

    For what it's worth I believe this book has been almost universally rebuked for its false teachings by everyone who holds an "Orthodox Christian" bias.

    How can it be helpful for someone to be presented with a nice story about a false god when they are angry at the God? I haven't figured that one out.
  • L
    Regards your comment to Rut, are you suggesting that all opinions are equally valid and should be taken with the same weight regardless of their bias?(I'm saying bias is just that, "bias" does not make it truth because you believe something strongly. It gets in the realm of opinion. I'm saying the alarms going off may be his deep opinions that are reinforced by another reviewers opinion. The alarms could be of the Lord. It is good for all of us to consider what source we are coming from before we settle on a particular matter.

    Should I go to Christopher Hitchens to get a review of the Gospel of Matthew? (what?! come on!!)

    For what it's worth I believe this book has been almost universally rebuked for its false teachings by everyone who holds an "Orthodox Christian" bias. (There are many dear saints of God who will be glorious received into His presence who hold a differing review other than yours or mine. We all will just have to stay in our respective heavenly corners :) )

    How can it be helpful for someone to be presented with a nice story about a false god when they are angry at the God? I haven't figured that one out. (That's because your view, bias blocks any value this book could have. Obviously you have strong opinions and disagree. Respect them, you, would hope we could fellowship warmly on those things which all believers share--Our Christ.
  • "Respect them, you would hope we could fellowship warmly on those things which all believers share–Our Christ."

    Question is, is it our christ or The Christ? If our faith is not in the Christ of the Bible as He defines Himself, then is it Christianity?

    Much of what flies under the banner of Christ has little to do with the biblical Jesus. Yet we're too lazy and proud to find out Who He Is.
  • PS - Methinks I blogged too rashly: That wasn't intended as a condemnation of "L" or anyone else here in particular - just an observation about our fleshly tendencies, myself included. But praise God for His transforming power and grace!
  • L
    DARRIN
    "Question is, is it our christ or The Christ?"
    The one and only, Son of the living God. However there are many who search the Scriptures but do not know Him.

    I do not know for sure if abclay knows THE Lord or not: His words are sharp but seems to be sincere. Assumed He is of Christ. therefore I referred to CHRIST as Ours in the hope of fellowship.

    Not sure if you are(A CHRISTIAN), but if you are...I tell you I am as well.
    In Christ we have a oneness that will break down all barriers (even differing views on the Shack)--thus we can have warm fellowship. The cross makes it possible.
    I Trust The Christ is Our Christ.
  • abclay
    L

    that's a fair criticism and correct assessment. I should learn to express my words "less sharp".

    I concur with Darrin. The Jehovah's witness claim Christ as well. Theirs is not the same Christ.

    To truly know Christ, you must know about The Christ, should you not?
  • abclay
    I have thought about that last statement a bit while brushing the chompers and I must retract it.
  • Elaina
    I just want to say something...First, I loved the book b/c I have a personality and learning style that is very visual and I love to read stories. However, it amazes me that a work of FICTION can bring such dissension between followers and lovers of our Lord, Jesus Christ. This book is not meant to be the Bible, it is meant to be a fictional story, just like C.S. Lewis' Chronicles of Narnia and the Screwtape Letters and any other fictional book written by a fellow believer. I feel like God's children have blown this way out of the water. We need to concentrate on loving each other and telling others about Jesus Christ and the greatest sacrifice ever made for humanity. And quit wasting all of our time arguing over a book that isn't even real. Go and tell...don't dwell on this book because it won't even matter in the end, what matters is the love story God has written us, the Bible and the story of our beloved, Jesus Christ.
  • L
    Point taken Elaina
    And brothers in Christ thank you for your words
  • Darrin,

    I listened to this today. I have a post pending about it when I get a little more time.

    It is unbelievable that his answers are so inconsistent. He sounds like he's on the edge of universalism, yet says he doesn't know.

    Sad,

    Mark