A friend from church wrote a brief review of The Shack that touches on some key points as to why we should be cautious about this book. Or maybe even disregard it all together. He gave me permission to share this review.
SHACK ATTACK – OR A CALL TO DISCERNMENT?
“Discernment is not simply a matter of telling the difference between what is right and wrong; rather it is the difference between right and almost right.” -Charles Spurgeon
At the encouragement of friends, I recently read The Shack by William P. Young. A national bestseller widely embraced by some churches and many professing Christians, The Shack is a work of fiction that embodies lengthy conversations between the main character, a man named Mack, and three persons who represent a version of the Trinity.
Frankly, I was dismayed at many messages conveyed by The Shack and have been surprised that many of my Christian friends have read the book uncritically, finding it a charming and heart-warming story. Some say that it is unfair to have theological expectations since the book is fiction. However, The Shack is marketed as a spiritually transforming book, and it being received that way by many.
It seems to me that a more critical reading is required of The Shack than a secular work of fiction because the author creates characters that purport to speak as God and to guide Mack on his spiritual journey. The fictional story becomes a device to have characters representing the Godhead explain a particular theology. As believers, our spiritual antennas should be fully deployed when we approach such a book.
In The Shack, God the Father appears to Mack as a large, jovial black woman whom Mack calls “Papa.” The Holy Spirit appears as a small Asian woman, and Jesus appears as a Jewish man. Putting aside gender confusion and the attempt to give human form and voice to the Father and Holy Spirit (“no man hath seen God at any time,” John 1:8), it is critical for the Christian reader to carefully consider the message author Young has those voices bring and to weigh their message in the light of the clear teaching of the Bible. That is to exercise discernment, a requirement – not an option – for Christians.
When we read The Shack with discernment, I submit that we find many distortions and untruths. Consider just a few of the words Young puts in the mouths of his created Trinity (my comments are within the parentheses):
Papa to Mack: “We [the Trinity] have limited ourselves out of respect for you.” (Isn’t this Open Theism – God choosing to limit Himself?)
Jesus: “God, who is the ground of all being, dwells in, around, and through all things . . .” (Isn’t this Pantheism – God in all things?)
Sarayu (Young’s Sanscrit name for the Holy Spirit): “We [the Trinity] carefully respect your choices, so we work within your systems even while we seek to free you from them.” (“Neither are your ways my ways . . . my ways are higher than your ways.” Isaiah 55:8-9. Does God respect man’s choices, or does His Word demand that we repent of our ways and that we enter His narrow way?)
Sarayu: “Both evil and darkness can only be understood in relation to Light and Good; they do not have any actual existence . . . Light and Good actually exist.” (Really? Does the Bible teach that evil has no actual existence? Was the biblical Jesus aware of that when He conversed with Satan in the desert temptation?)
Papa: “I don’t need to punish people for sin Sin is its own punishment, devouring you from the inside. It is not my purpose to punish it; it’s my joy to cure it.” (Certainly there are consequences of our sin which we realize in this life and which impact other people. And certainly God has provided the cure for sin. That “cure” is the penal substitutionary atonement of Christ on the cross. Most certainly there is punishment for sin. Christ suffered the punishment for us. However, the implication of Papa’s statement is that the only punishment for sin is sin’s own punishment in a person’s life. The Bible is clear that punishment for the unredeemed, those who refuse Christ’s atonement, is the sting of spiritual death and eternal separation from God. The Shack makes light work of the cross.)
Young’s Jesus character states that he, Papa, and Sarayu are “indeed submitted to one another and have always been so and always will be . . . . In fact, we [the Trinity] are submitted to you [Mack] in the same way.” (Why, then, did the biblical Jesus submit Himself to the will of His father? Does the Bible teach submission to authority in spiritual and family and secular environments? What do you make of the claim that the Trinity is submitted to us? I believe that Young’s anti-authoritarianism is risky in human terms and that it is blasphemous to attribute such egalitarian sentiments to God.)
When requested by Papa to forgive the murderer of his young daughter, Mack balks. Papa says, “Mack, for you to forgive this man is for you to release him to me and allow me to redeem him.” (So God can only redeem those whom humans have forgiven and have released to God for redemption? The effectiveness of redemption for the unrepentant murderer is to be accomplished with Mack’s participation? Find biblical support for that, my friends!)
Christian, what about this assertion by the Jesus of The Shack? “I am the best way any human can relate to Papa or Sarayu.” (This is a false Jesus. The Jesus Christ of the Bible does not say that He is the best way, He says, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me.” John 14:16. He is not the best way – He is the only way.)
The Shack evidences a low regard for Scripture. When Mack mentions biblical events or concepts, Papa brushes them off and glibly explains how it really is, thus suggesting that the Bible is the work of man, not the divinely inspired work of God. Yet, some argue that The Shack has value in that it demonstrates a loving God of grace who invites man to a relationship. But it does so with grievous distortions about the nature of God, the nature of the Trinity, the authority of God’s Word, God’s hatred of sin, the requirement of repentance, and the nature of conversion and salvation.
My brothers and sisters, even in reading and discussing a work of fiction, we must be prepared to “contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints” (Jude 3), and to do so without apology to the world. The Shack may, from its human author’s viewpoint, be in all sincerity intended as an inviting look at a highly relational God, but would you place even a drop of poison in pure water and invite others to drink? As Dr. Albert Mohler, president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, said, The Shack “contains undiluted heresy.” Don’t you and I have a responsibility to be equipped to recognize heresy and to shine the light of truth so that we and others are not deceived?
- Wayne Elliott
p.s. I addressed some of the objections to this review: Is the Shack Only Fiction?
tagged as book review, The Shack in books,Church Issues,Culture,heresy,theology
About the author
Mark is a Christian, husband and father. He is a businessman by day working to support his family while attending seminary in the off hours as he prepares for vocational ministry.
{ 491 comments… read them below or add one }
← Previous Comments
Next Comments →
Brooks (aka lil’ ole music minister),
Hee Hee. I like the “Somebody’s wrong” quote…I’ll be chuckling about that one for a few days. It wouldn’t be funny if it weren’t true! (It makes me wonder how many people at the concert, if asked if they might be “wrong”, would have raised their hand. My guess is there would have been perplexed multitudes standing there with their hands wavering at belly button level.)
As for “typing before thinking”, rest assured, you have absolutely nothing to apologize for. I completely understood/understand where you were/are coming from. When I was a Christian Ed Director and had two kids under six crawling all over me, I probably would have been hard pressed to name the four gospels. That season in my life is a gigantic happy blur. Hang in there! The next season will be on you before you know it.
Thanks for your comments and humor. God bless you and your family.
Harmony, if you don’t mind, I was just concerned about something you said (unrelated to The Shack, I think):
“Since none of us know completely if we are “saved””
and
“Although I have great hope that I won’t be cast out of God’s net, He gave none of us absolute confidence that we wouldn’t.”
If I understand you correctly, these comments do not line up with scripture, and concern me in that you don’t believe in the importance of assurance of salvation. Perhaps I missed something earlier.
Brooks, you wrote
“that’s not to say that the book hasn’t helped me understand God’s love in a different way.” As long as it’s not in a way which is inconsistent with the love God has revealed in scripture. That’s the concern some of us have.
I agree with your comments about the comments, and I do want to sincerely add that I couldn’t care less who get tagged with being right or wrong; I just desire the truth to be communicated and understood by all of us. In some areas God may have not yet revealed it, but in others He surely has.
In response to Darrin,
Thanks for the genuine concern, and rest assured that the only book I take for truth is the Bible. Well, the bible and Schofield’s notes (please note the sarcasm in my voice). I was just stating that even as perfect as I am (chuckle), I’d be the first to admit that I put God in a box. I do feel like at this point in my life – where I’m at in my relationship with God (if that makes any sense) – God has been using some strange things to show me how simple, and at the same time how infinite, His love for His creation is. I don’t think I would ever recommend this book for a non-believer, but speaking for myself as a born again Christian, God has revealed things to me through the reading of this book that I desperately needed for spiritual growth. Before anyone criticizes…I’m not saying this book is the only way God could have revealed that to me, just simply that He has used it as a tool to speak to me. I would explain myself and situation a little more, but that would probably take about 4 pages of comments.
I apologize if this makes my previous post even more confusing or if this post wasn’t even necessary, I just felt like typing and I enjoy conversation (if you can call posting comments conversation) between fellow believers.
2-legit-2-quit,
Brooks
Truths from the Shack: Knowing and enjoying the triune God
Young has, no doubt, taken liberty in the Shack with the subject of the trinity. None of us truly understand the fullness of this doctrine, and This book has brought out how limited we are in our understanding of this matter. Some have struggled over the oneness of the Godhead and the lack of a hierarchical structure. Others struggle with presentation of the trinity as a family unit, suggesting a lowering of Gods glory and thus making God all too familiar. The purpose here is not to rehash opinions about Young’s fictional presentation of the Godhead, but rather to ask “does this book reveal truth about the trinity that is practical for the believer?” I think so.
Christians are to have a practical enjoyment of the God in their lives.
John 14:20-23 says
Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him…My Father and I will love him (you) and manifest Myself to him (you)…
John 14-16 describes the trinity actually making home in us through Christ’s work. They abide in us. Christ said I will be in you, you in me, and the Father is in me and I am in Him, and the Spirit will not abandon you, but will dwell in you, instruct you and make all these “abidings” a reality. Take a pen and paper and try to diagram Who is in who according to the Word. It’s revealing. Do you enjoy God living in you? Do you enjoy His fullness as the triune God? Most I know see The Father orchestrating His work, The Son coming down to perform His work, and the Spirit coming in us to seal the deal. The Godhead becomes compartmentalized. They are outlined and doctrinalized into their work and function so hopefully we can understand them. But brothers and sisters are you enjoying the triune God?
God lives in you! Yes or no? Which part of God lives in you? Some say, “Well the Father is on the Throne, the Son on the right hand, and the Spirit is on earth in the all saints.” True! But they are God. You got one, you got them all! They all are in you according to the scriptures. “You are God’s house” according to Paul and Peter, “Christ in you’ the hope of glory” says Paul, and the Spirit is in our spirit making all this a reality, John quotes. Governmentally God is on His throne, experientially He is in my spirit to carry out His government and to be enjoyed. To fellowship with!
The Shack presents God in His fullness and in perfect love as being enjoyed by a believer. We need to enjoy God in all His glory and as our family! This needs to be revealed in the body. We students of scripture can be so bent on defending our thoughts about a doctrine, that we miss truth (reality), we miss HIM!
Do you know what Abba, and Christ, and the Spirit have been doing in eternity past? Its unknowable in its fullness, but I can tell you that they are the First family. They perfectly love each other- so much they are called the Beloved. They display love, they interact, care for, and fellowship wonderfully with one another. And I have been brought into this Beloved perfect family through their marvelous work.
O Saints! We can enjoy God as He intended from before the foundations of the earth. Not as angels, but blood bought children sitting at the table enjoying Him in His fullness as members of His family. Heaven will be wonderful, but do not wait till then to enter in!
I’ve been a believer of Christ for over 25 years and I have to admit that my spiritual antennas went up when I started reading “The Shack”. I’m pretty critical of just about everything I read,(i gave “Wild At Heart” by Etherege two chapters and tossed it) but I decided to give this a shot. I just finished the book last night, and although I may have had a few warning flags pop up as I was reading, the book really left me with a strong desire to know God more, especially when it comes to His love for me. It also has me re-examining my thoughts and actions concerning judging others and forgiveness. As I was reading, I couldn’t help but think of the many, who are reading this book who either don’t believe in Christ, or are “riding the fence”. I can only think that this book would point them to Him, and would hopefully push them to ever so gently to seek Him even more.
Truth from The Shack: Revelation of Good
Several reviewers are bothered by the Spirits (Sarayu) discussion of good and evil. This review, like others, only quotes a small fragment of this conversation:
i.e.
“Both evil and darkness can only be understood in relation to Light and Good; they do not have any actual existence . . . Light and Good actually exist.”
That is unfortunate: there are 8 pages dedicated to this subject (131-138).
The Holy Spirit seeks to help Mack understand man’s warped view of discernment. We, even Christians, tend to live according to the tree of knowing good and evil. We think we can tell the difference between what is right and wrong, or the difference between what is “right or almost right”. We even use the Bible to justify our rightness. This is the realm of the law, of division, and of death. The tree of Life should be our existence. Christ has restored that tree with Himself as He enters our spirit and becomes our daily supply. His Word becomes “rhema” and is life giving in this way. His Life is truth/reality. Satan is a lie/not reality. Satan’s attempt is, as in the garden, to cause us to live as God- trying to discern what we believe to be good and evil. In this sense we know and judge evil. We become discerners of what we think to be right or wrong. We lose touch with reality (Light, Good, Life = God, Christ in you), do not live by Him as our Source, and consequently remove ourselves from Life by this sort of independent living. We seperate ourselves from Him and plunge into real evil: drawing upon ourselves. This is death. The evil that we discern to be evil does not have real existence. That is because we become the source deciding what is good or EVIL. Who are we? GOD?
Saints, just know Him. Learn of Him. He is truth, life, good. REAL evil (not what you “discern” to be according to YOU) will be exposed simply by knowing and drawing upon His life. This is what Sarayu was telling Mack.
Jesus said, “Eat my body and drink my blood” This was a hard saying for followers of Jesus. Many walked away from Him that day.
24/7 eating and drinking of Jesus means He becomes your constant supply of life. He is your tree of Life. Absolute sacrifice of the other tree (your discernment)is hard. Sacrifice of your religious ideas and systems of determining right and wrong. This is hard!
But “Oh Taste and see that that Lord is Good.”
Steve,
Before I say what I am going to say, I want to say that I say what I am trying to say in a loving manner.
What you just wrote wreaked of gnosticism, mysticism, and general spiritual gobbly-gook.
I felt like I should have shaved my head, configured my body in a yoga-contemplative position, closed my eyes, burned some incense and chanted for a while after reading your post.
Maybe I am just not “wired” to understand all of the great “biblical” teachings contained in the pages of The Shack. I haven’t been given the ability to ascend to that higher plane of understanding and consciousness.
abclay
Steve,
The only thing I can ascribe to you is the aroma of the way, life, and truth of Jesus. Thank you for your wonderful expression of this. A little while ago, God told me to stop trying to figure it all out and to engage in the mystery. Such has been my journey – to live in the joy of His spirit, to be truly alive. To engage in rich, trusting relationship with Him and to risk deep relationship with others. This is not to defy scripture or its relevance. In fact, I read the bible continuously and love it. It is to say that scripture is meant to draw us to freedom and have its end in Him. Take care.
Vivien.
It is ok abclay. Not trying to contend with you. My response to these reviews is just to do more than knee jerk when one line goes against our religious grain. Any good review deserves more than that.
You seem to know the scripture, and I sense you know Him as your Savior. He, the writer of the Word, is living inside you. Do not separate the two. He is alive and living in us, leading us, prompting us in our spirit. You are wired with His life. If this were not so He would have told us, so since it is really true just abide in Him, stay in Him, live in Him. I would forgo the incense, shaving of the head, and cross legged posturing (too painful at my age), but brother, daily turning to His life within, opening up the word, and fellowshiping with Him about all things is what we were wired to do. The Christ in me loves the Christ in you.
I must say, this book is certainly a wonderful phenomenon. What should have been a two hour read, took several days. I simply was neither mentally nor emotionally able to take it all in a single sitting.
I have a Missy in my own life. My youngest daughter, Victoria Lynn, died a little more than a year ago. She was ten and I was truly broken. I immediately began cultivating an already shaky relationship into fist shaking, angry resentment towards God that has all but consumed me since that awful day.
I am stunned with the healing and restoration that I have experienced while reading this book. My perspectives of forgiveness and relationship have been literally ripped from my soul and replaced by a truth so beautiful I simply have no words to describe how I feel.
To those who criticize this book in any way I would like to say this. You have certainly played a very important part in spreading the word about this beautiful story and for that I thank you. I pray that God sends you a blessing as intense as the one He has sent me through this beautiful book.
Wow, this is a wonderful thread. I have to give Mike some credit for fighting the good fight on this for a very long time. Not that there weren’t others, but wow, that’s a lot of effort to put out there.
I wasn’t personally a big fan of the Shack. I liked it well enough, but I critique it more on grounds of taste than on theology or literary merit. But I’m not a big fan of Pilgrim’s Progress either, and it’s critical and theological merit is beyond any doubt.
I can’t help one final point though. Unlike Islam, we are not a religion, “of the book.” The Word of God is not the entire religion, it is a revelation of a living being that we must have an actual relationship with. The Shack brings that point home in a very powerful way, and from what I read on this discussion, that’s a point that desperately needs to be brought home to our Christian community.
FM,
Mike fought “the good fight”? If it’s the Mike I was reading, I’m not sure that’s an accurate representation of his content nor demeanor. Of course I’m not about to reread the entire thread, so apologies to Mike.
Regarding your final point, I don’t think that Christianity’s troubles are due to being too much in the scriptures, but not nearly enough. (I realize you didn’t say that, but I’m making a related point.) Indeed they should lead us to a vital relationship with the living God, but remember that they themselves are “living and active”. I would be concerned about insisting we are not “of the book” – certainly we are not Muslims, but neither is their book God-breathed. The Christian life requires the Word and the Spirit, and the written Word is currently God’s primary source of revelation to believers. Some on this thread seem to attempt to divorce the two, and opt for mystical, therapeutic personal revelation, whether or not it is consistent with the Word of God. The scriptures then take a lower place, whereas they are our one solid foundation of truth given by which to measure all things. The importance of this cannot be overstated, especially today.
It is too bad that so many comments have been inspired by such an insipid book. It is shameful that people would argue about who is right about which belief.
The author clearly has marginal writing ability and utilizes spirituality to sell books – It’s all about marketing!
I am sure the Mr. Young is a “nice guy” and all, but his book is a long essay on a silly fantasy.
Betsy,
I appreciate your discernment in seeing this book as a long essay on a silly fantasy but I disagree with your assessment of this discussion as shameful.
I think the fact that people desire to defend Young’s gross misrepresentation of the Godhead, sin, etc. speaks to the need for having such a discussion.
I have just finished the book and truely feel it was a wonderful book. People who have lost loved ones can feel some sort of reasurance. Many people whether you believe or not will question God about why he takes our loved ones. We don’t always understand. I am a true believer and yes some things in the book aren’t what is totally said in scripture but I don’t think that is what the author was trying to do. To be totally honest I felt alot of relief after just loosing some loved ones. I wouldn’t say I was mad at God but I did question him and after reading this book it made me see a different side of things. So for people to judge the book I don’t truely see the point. It is something there that people can relate to in one way or the other. I just think people are not seeing the true reason he wrote this. So if people can relate to something and help feel a stronger relationship with God than why judge. I am sure everyone has lost a loved one and needed one thing to get them back on track and remember why God is here and why he does the things he does.
We need a better understanding of discernment.
Note above
Betty’s quip regarding the Shack is appreciated as discernment, but her word on this thread is deemed as a personal “assessment”.
Why is it that when someone agrees with us they have “discernment” but where they don’t it is considered their wrong “assessment”? I bet Betty could find many verses to show the divisive, unloving, ungodly, and unedifying aspects of this thread. Backed by a raft of scriptures would that then be “discernment”? I guess only if we agree with her, otherwise it’s just another assessment.
This is what I was alluding to earlier–living by our own view of determining what we think is right, wrong, or almost right (even Scripturally) sets US up as THE final authority–only those who agree with our view are right and have true discernment. All others have wrong assessments.
True discernment is simply learning to see something as He sees it. We need the Word and, well, sorry, but we need that “mystical” Spirit. As Darrin said, you can’t separate the two, but brother you can’t divorce the Spirit from the Word either.
Jhn 16:13 When he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:
Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.
…so I will ask us again: Have we got on our knees and poured out our heart before God and spent time with Him regarding this matter? Have we asked Him, how do you see this Lord, what do you think of this matter (ie. the book)?” What is He saying to us inwardly?
Or have we gone straight to our stronghold of doctrinal views and opinions about what we believe and just start defending/arguing/condemning with our “rightness.” We may be “right”, but we are “dead” right without His leading.
Steve,
So you’re suggesting that God’s Spirit may lead us into concepts that are in disagreement with God’s Word?
If so, you tread on dangerous ground – be careful. Evangelicalism is already headed in that direction: it’s OK to compromise the scriptures a little bit, if it proves to help people in some way.
Or do you really think that the doctrines we profess are just “our stronghold”, and not the Lord’s?
By the way, if anyone would prefer a scripture-based text for dealing with suffering, one book I would recommend is “Crook in the Lot” by Thomas Boston.
Betsy not Betty
My apology
Darrin
No, Not sure how you got that idea,I love the Word
We can be right about a matter and back it up with scripture galore, but if our source is our self it is dead. Jesus came that we might have abundant life. That life does not flow just because we are saved or quote Scripture. His Life is in me. I need to contact that Life. Draw from that Life. His life will not contradict His written Word. His life becomes a living epistle written upon my heart for all to see.
I do not know the hearts of all who post here, but with some you can sense a strong opinion. A “I am right no matter what you say” attitude. More than defending the book, I am drawn to use it as a means of encouraging bro and sis to touch their spirit and commune with Him before we judge so harshly.
Our opinions and reasoning CAN become strongholds. We need to cast “down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;”
“Doctrines” can definitely become strongholds. You and I probably agree on the pillars of the faith, we may differ on some aspects, but may people see His Life in us foremost. If they see Him I believe they will see The Truth, The Way, and The Life. Right doctrine will follow.
Steve,
I think we do have much in agreement. And I do appreciate the truths you have expressed, as well as what others have said here by way of testimony of how God has helped them, whether via this book or however He chooses. I think I wrote previously that I certainly believe God can and may well use this book as a means to teach people or draw them to Himself, perhaps overcoming false notions of
religion they may have been burdened with.
But, again, the importance God expresses in His word of our knowing who He is AS He revealed Himself, and of upholding all the doctrines in His word (Jesus: “teaching them ALL that I have commanded you”), leads me to appreciate and agree with John Mark and others here who express concerns about the book. My comment about the Word wasn’t directed at you, brother Steve, but at the book in its erroneous doctrines as have been expressed in the initial post here and in other places.
Your last statement about seeing Him, and then “right doctrine will follow” – I see there is truth there, brother, but on the flip-side, I am convicted that right doctrine will lead to seeing Him, when accompanied by the Holy Spirit. I’m concerned about the church – I know my flesh – and I believe that we can seek spiritual things without a solid grounding in the Word, perhaps expecting that the doctrine will follow automatically. But it doesn’t – we/they need to be diligent to learn and understand the truths delivered once for all, and judge everything else we encounter in life by them. Seasoned with grace, absolutely, but without compromise, as difficult as that is for me in this dark world.
Darrin,
I agree that we should follow God as He has revealed himself in the Bible. However, how can you be certain that you understand the exact way He would like to be revealed? When Jesus said, “I am the Truth, the Way and the Life” and the only way to the Father, how do we know His exact understanding of the Truth, the Way and the Life? Can it be only your understanding that is “right”? How can we be sure that when He says He is the only way to the Father that this only way is how the conservative church understands it to be? Or that this only way is how the emerging chuch understands it? I get so confused. Outside of the Ten Commandments which are quite literal, why do we all have to endlessly debate scripture? How can we completely know for certain what God is communicating?
Nancy, thanks for sharing your concerns.
Sincerely, “my understanding” is of no value, just because I possess it, and if I am wrong in any of my beliefs, I certainly want to know and rectify them.
But you have to be careful. If we can’t be sure what the Bible says, what was the purpose of God giving it to us?
So much of what often passes as Christianity is easily refuted by the scriptures. You mention the emerging and conservative churches: surely the one is full of biblical contradiction, but the other is not perfect either. And neither are we as individuals, so we may not in this life fully comprehend what you refer to as “the exact way He would like to be revealed”, but we are to be as precise as He gives us grace to be! And we are to be diligent in growing in that precision.
Please don’t fall for the common notion that we can’t understand the Bible, or that most disagreements have no resolutions, etc. If we are diligent to read and learn, in context, “line upon line”, and we are His children, led by His Spirit, God will teach us great things from His Word. And we can’t ignore the great preachers and teachers of the past – the church fathers and historic orthodox (“straight praise”) Christianity are extremely valuable in helping understand the scriptures – otherwise we run the risk of “reinventing Christianity every Sunday”, as one historian has astutely observed.
Do I think that all doctrinal questions are easily answered, or that I have all of them – absolutely not. But I know that God has shown me much, especially through the last couple years as doctrinal contraversy has come upon my life and church. And I believe that as I seek Him in His Word, He will continue to bring light to the cloudy areas. But it must be in the Word that I look for the answers.
Nancy
As Darrin said, thank God for church fathers who shed their blood for the truth.
One thing for sure, the Scriptures point us to Jesus.
This is why I believe it is so important to know the reality of Christ in us. The Life within matches the written truth. As we read the Word the Spirit within says “Yes”. We will see Him in the Word, We will trust the Word. We will accept all those who have Christ within, not because they agree on every dotted i or crossed t, but because they have “Christ” in them. He becomes our focus. He is sufficient.
Nancy, He is the centrality of all things in our faith. He himself is the way to the Father, He brings us God’s Life which He deposits in our spirit, and He is the truth: He make all of this a reality within us.
Seek to know Him in the Word, read the Word with this purpose. Quit trying to strain out the truth with your intellect or categorize others views as right or wrong. Seek the simplicity of Christ. Count all as loss to know Him! The Word will come alive and become clear.
Steve, you are a breath of fresh air.
Vivien.
Darrin and Steve,
What kind and thoughtful answers…thanks. You are both at peace with your faith and it shows.
Darrin, you are a shining example of someone who loves God with all his heart and mind. I must respectfully disagree, though, with your assumption that there is no purpose in the Bible unless we know precisely what God is revealing to us. I am sure of what God is revealing to me. I am not sure of what He is revealing to you. But faith and understanding are two different matters. This is why people argue over scripture–they mistrust each other’s understanding of God and therefore don’t trust one another’s faith. I trust your faith, Darrin, even though our “precise” understanding of the Bible may differ.
Although I think that the Bible is central to my understanding of Jesus and God’s nature, I do not believe it is a complete revelation. God is too big an entity to be entirely contained in man’s written word of Him. What would we Christians do if the Bible were stripped from us and we were sent into exile as happened to the Hebrews long ago when they were taken from their destroyed temple? Without the Bible, could we still consider ourselves Christians? I believe the answer is a resounding YES. We would weep and mourn its loss, we might wonder if we could survive so far away from where God “resides”, but we would persevere and our faith would continue. Emmanuel lives with us. To echo Steve’s statement, HE is sufficient…and I delight in His way, His Truth and His Life. Peace be with you all.
Darrin, Vivien, Nancy
This latter fellowship has been refreshing to me.
It is good to simply enjoy Him, our oneness, and refrain from other mindedness.
Nancy, Heaven and earth may pass away, but I do not think His Word will ever be lost; but as you said, He will be with us, even until the end of this age. No matter what happens the Scriptures reveal that the church will be sufficiently supplied to overcome.
The Spirit and the bride say “Come Lord Jesus”
Steve,
To what you said so eloquently, I can add nothing but…Amen.
Wow. You people scare me. I’ve read this book, though I’m no theologian,I enjoyed it. What I got out of this book is the ultimate love of God, our Father and forgiveness of our fellow man. I’m not deep. Just searching. This is not the end all of literature of course, but a book that might engage many in the flock. To read the discourse above…..it’s no wonder people are still searching.
Maggie,
That’s a pretty broad brush you are using to paint everyone who has contributed to this site. Please consider that each individual is “searching” in their own way, some perphaps more deeply or more superficially than the next. We all deserve basic respect, though, no matter what our beliefs or convictions. Come join the discussion and learn something. We aren’t all that “scary” once you get to know us!
Religion is dangerous. Religion would rather debate about healing and salvation than see somebody healed or saved. Religion would rather argue about deliverance than see somebody set free.
Nancy, your words about me were too kind. I only wish that were true of me, to His glory.
If this thread ends, or at least my little part in it, I’m glad if it can do so on a cordial note.
I would just leave a challenge, which was probably given above by others:
There seems to be some tension here between the concepts of a Spirit-filled life (along with loving Christ, sensing His love for us, loving and helping people, etc.) and a diligence to follow scripture (studying the Bible, growing in a deep understanding of what it says, proclaiming sound bibilical doctrine, judging things by the Word, refuting doctrinal error, etc.).
I would strongly challenge all of us that there need not be a choice between the two – we can embrace BOTH, and in fact are commanded to do so.
For if the two are not joined hand-in-hand, I would question the validity of either one.
Thanks for the review. I wish I would of known about this before I purchased the book. Its going in the trash. I’m not even going to give it away or sell it. God Bless
Hey to all. I just spent the last hour or so reading a good portion of this blog. To those of you who wish to hammer away at the details of thology–I understand (partly) your point of view. I have spent years studying, thinking, agonizing over the fine details of theology. Some of my study was formal, but much was informal. The formal cost me dearly. I do not feel that my study was wasted, but I will say that it never brought me into intimacy with Jesus. I longed to have the theological details honed to precision, but precision never brought depth of relationship. It was only after my life imploded that Jesus and I really connected in deeper ways. In fact, it was my lack of precision–my complete and total lack of togetherness that finally brought me into the beginnings of intimacy with the Word made flesh. My comment here is from my (limited) experience of Jesus as the Way, Truth, and Life–correct doctrine doesn’t necessarily result in deep relationship. We all like to think that our understanding is correct, but from my experience, Jesus meets us in our deepest need rather than in our greatest theological understandings. I would encourage my sisters and brothers to meet each other here in weakness rather than in strength.
Love to my friends in the Family,
JAC
JAC,
I think your comments will provide a good illustration to those of us who have problems with The Shack.
When it is claimed that – Jesus is the Way, Truth and Life – this is correct doctrine. If we divorce the “correct” from “correct doctrine” we are still left with doctrine. Our relationship with Jesus will always be based on some sort of doctrine. If this doctrine is not correct in as much as He has revealed Himself in Scripture then upon what is the relationship based?
I do agree that someone can just have intellectual knowledge of correct doctrines while at the same time not having a loving relationship to Jesus. Though I would also say that this person does not actually believe these doctrines, but just knows them.
On the other side, someone can believe they have a deep relationship with Jesus (i.e. Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses,etc.), but have incorrect doctrine. This incorrect doctrine may make them feel better in some ways though they are actually denying Who Jesus actually is. (Cf. Romans 10:2-3)
On what basis should I accept your experience and not dismiss it by saying that you just like to think that [your] understanding is correct? If ones understanding only comes from their own experience then why discount whether or not one really understands?
You have also implied that Jesus meeting us in our deepest need is our greatest theological understanding.
I do agree that Jesus meets us in our deepest need. That need is salvation from sin through the Gospel by grace through faith. When He meets us and saves us He does not leave us there.
Mark
JAC
Sounds like you just started enjoying Him rather than just studying about Him.
The revelation of Christ within!
I know many independent,fundamental students, ministers who knew all the systems of systematic theology but did not know Him, and then as you as you described He opened their eyes: The Word became alive, old hymns had new meaning, God’s eternal purpose was clearer…
Jesus is the center of all things. He is preeminent! He is all and in all. Continue to Proclaim it! Your message is clear.
I will not “Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
And what [is] the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],
Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
And hath put all [things] under his feet, and gave him [to be] the head over all [things] to the church,
Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.”
Bro. Steve,
*tongue planted firmly in cheek*
I agree with you. Let us cast aside those cold doctrines and have faith that God will grant us a special revelation outside of the Word. Let us “let go and let God”. For a “real” knowledge of Christ isn’t in the words of men written two thousand years ago.
This worked well for Joseph Smith, Herbert Armstrong, Charles Taze Russel, David Koresh, Jim Jones, etc.
*tongue removed*
I know that you aren’t advocating the above extreme, nor anything close, but I do believe you are unwittingly advocating the tearing down of the walls of historic orthodox credal Christianity. When these walls are dismantled, as they have been for many “churches”, and mysticism, spiritualism, and neo-gnosticism have taken hold, the only path is a serious and fatal heresy in a fashion reminiscent of those carried out by the aforementioned “prophets”.
The author of this review used Scripture to point out some serious problems with The Shack. I find this “contending for the faith” to be scripturally mandated.
Maybe I am just a “Bible Nazi”, but I find myself “enjoying” Christ more and more simply by studying about Him. Every new revelation through the Word regards what God did for me through Him grows my love for Him more and more.
I am aware that everyone is not blessed with the same ability to study the Word as others have been, and I know that no one has any gift that they didn’t first receive. In the same vein though, I believe that God graces people in the church with gifts for the exhortation of believers so that they may be presented as a “pure virgin” to Christ at His coming. It is then my responsibility to listen to what they say, compare it with what the scripture says, and then submit to their authority if they are correct.
Grace and Peace…
Dear abclay,
I admire your love for Scripture and enthusiasm for the Truth. You seem to have a God-given ability to think clearly. You also seem to have a deep belief in the reliability of Scripture and it’s relevance to the present issues of sin and the errosion of popular belief in absolute Truth. I love the written Word of God, and will quickly tell you that all that I hold dear depends on the authenticity of what is revealed therein.
I would ask you to consider the gentleness of Jesus. It is very true that He at times spoke very hard words to the religious hypocrites who refused to see the Presence of God among them. But Jesus was also called the friend of sinners, whether that sinner happened to be a thief/murderer hanging beside Him on the cross, a woman taken in adultery, or a hard headed disciple. Jesus also was gently compassionate with the hypocritical religious right. When they finally had their way and crucified Him, His only recorded prayer for them was “Father forgive them for they know not what they do.” To date, Jesus in His love and compassion has reached untold millions with salvation, hope, and new life. It seems that your profound respect and love for Scripture would not overlook the amazing love and compassion that Jesus showed for those He drew to Himself.
Blessings,
JAC
Hey abclay
Can not see what I said to JAC that provoked such words.
I was not talking to you, I don’t know you, your background or your training. Nor was I questioning your love for the Lord or His Word, or you love for Him as you read the Word. ??????
JAC had a great testimony. Touched by it and could relate.
Lighten up.
I can appreciate church history, can’t always trust it. I can trust the ageless Christ, the Word, and the fact that the writer of the word happens to be present with me always.
I won’t play ping pong with labels and accusations with you. It is not good.
If you thot my words to JAC were labeling you you’re wrong. I fittingly was describing myself and it sounded like JACs experience as well.
P.S.
I do not think this review on the Shack touched very many Scriptures. A weak argument using fragments of book quotes and partial scripture quotes without exploring the context of either, expressing opinions mixed with interpretation of truths. Not saying he is right or wrong, but not a thorough exegesis of the subject matter. But this is water well run under an old bridge.
I’ll not engage anymore in it.
I will enjoy the testimonies of grace as they appear.
I just wanted to say I read the book, and enjoyed it very much, I never expected the author to be exacting in all he wrote, he was conveying , love and relationship, healing and forgiveness. I guess the way to read this book for some would have to be that you are truely grounded in the word of God and then you would not expect this book to become your source of truth.
Respectfully Jan
I did not read this book as a Study Book or as I read the Bible. The Bible is Truth, but, I loved the story, I loved the way they didnt put GOd in a box.
As Christians we live in a shell a glass house and the Law. Christ is freedom, love and Im not going to preach Hell to people and because of the fear of going to hell they’ll love Jesus? I don’t want anyone to love me because they’re afraid of me? Silly Christians. I fell in love with God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit and His Grace Mercy and Redemption which can’t be earned, or merited. I am free to Love GOd, read good books, enjoy life and still live a Holy Life without fearing that we have some Big God will come and strike me like an ant.
We are loved, while we were YET sinners, he died for us, how much more now that we are HIS? I loved the book, it was about forgiveness, the love of the father and CHrist’s Redemption. I have discernment, but Im not Religious and I don’t live in the LAW, I live by Grace Daily.
Flor and Jan,
Enjoyed your words. We can’t limit the relationship that the Father has for us/with us: reminded me of a hymn we used to sing in church:
“We all might think that God is up in heaven, In the clouds He dwells in golden halls , Up there all alone just sitting on His throne, But God is longing for His wandering people , He wants His people.
From all the lands He’s calling out His children, Those who walk in solitary ways, No matter where you’re from, Since He loves you , you can come, Enjoy God as the Father in the family. Come on in– We’ve been waiting for you.
In the book the final revelation, God comes home at last on earth to dwell. All problems flee away, Cause God is here to stay, You can hear the family calling hurry home.
We love you Father–Hear us calling, We love you Jesus–Hurry Home.”
What a shame that we human beings cannot accept & celebrate each other as the individuals God has created us to be. How sad it must make HIM to see us ridiculing & criticizing one another. All this controversy would make one think deeply & be very cautious when merely giving their personal testimony of God’s free gift of Mercy & Grace to them. Do we now have to check our every word to be “theoretically correct” or do we walk in the freedom of Christ Jesus our Risen Saviour & boldly trust in HIS SPIRIT as HE moves us. I believe the scriptures Philippians 1:12-18 where Paul tells the brethren that he rejoices that no matter what conditions Christ is preached, what is important is that CHRIST IS PREACHED! I for one do NOT want to face the Lord at judgment and try to explain to HIM my reasons for attacking this wonderful child of God who is planting seeds to share the gospel in his own individual way. Proverbs 3:5 tells us to trust in the Lord and not to lean to our own understanding. No wonder our Lord hates pride so much. It tears HIS creation down. Personally, this FICTIONAL work of Wm Paul Young has uplifted & edified me spiritually more than anything outside of the BIBLE. After all, isn’t that what we’re supposed to do for one another? (Lift each other up?) Honestly, as a parent…how it would devastate me to see my children picking each other to pieces like this. Shame on all of us!!!!! Allow God to be magnified & glorified through this. Praise His Holy Name…..He is worthy of all our praise!!!!! Really now, can we expect everyone to be a theologion. I’m pretty illiterate but God still loves me and I accept HIM as a little child! Please Lord, let me not be a stumbling block or hinderance to any of your children. Consider HIS prayer in John 17 and then present your reviews. Let me not be guilty of professing godliness but denying YOUR power. I surrender my right to try to “fix” others. Only YOU have the power to transform lives in whatever manner YOU choose. Thank You for granting mercy to me…in Jesus Name I humbly give You Glory. Amen
What a shame that we human beings cannot accept & celebrate God has He has revealed Himself to us in Scripture. How sad it must make Him to see us praising & uplifting an image of God that we’ve made from our own image. All of this controverting of who God is should make one think deeply & be very cautious of how He is portrayed when merely giving their personal testimony of God’s free gift of Mercy & Grace to them. Do we not have to check any word or do we just assume “theoretical correctness” based only on personal experience? Do we walk in the freedom of Jesus Christ trusting His Spirit to move us in the direction which goes along with the Scripture He wrote? I believe that if the Gospel is preached clearly regardless of motive as Paul states in Philippians 1:12-18 that I will rejoice. I also believe Romans 10:2 where Paul tells the brethren that people are sincere, but also wrong. I for one do not want to face the Lord at judgment explaining to Him why His word was not a good enough description of Himself and of how to explain the Gospel. Acts 17:11 tells us that even the apostle Paul’s teaching was testing by the Scriptures. Also, Ephesians 4:14 tells us to be careful about being tossed around by every wind of doctrine. My brother Wayne who wrote this review was doing just that. How dare people come here and criticize his critique since he was just following the biblical commands! He was lifting up other Christians as Ephesians 4:15-16 says by speaking the truth in love to build up the body. Whether we like it or not everyone is a theologian. Whatever we believe about God is theology. Lord, let me present the Gospel clearly that it may be a stumbling block to the Jews and foolishness to the Gentiles as Paul wrote in 1 Cor. 1:23.
Grace and peace,
Mark
JohnMarc,
Okay. We get it. Your theology is God’s “theology”. You understand the Bible perfectly. The rest of us who may have differing views, don’t get it. You don’t make God in your own image but the rest of us do. Your motives are true and you follow Biblical demands. You have the scripture to prove it but the rest of us who choose alternate scripture are just mistaken and forsaken. We, the sad lot who are inspired differently than you, will be very sorry when we are before God. We will have to explain to Him why we chose to be inspired by His love and compassion instead of following the letter of His law. We are doomed from getting into the Gated Community in which you will retire. We now fully know this because you have explained it many times on this site. We really do get it. Now will you stop beating this very dead horse? Thanks.
Nancy, that was quite unfair and unkind.
Mark’s response was fashioned according to Elsie’s attack, and was a very appropriate response, I believe.
Think about what is actually being said, and please don’t put words in people’s mouths.
Brothers John Mark & Darrin,
Thank you both so much for “enlightning” me with my errors. In my fumbling human ways, I feel compelled to uplift God’s children. I am a 60 yr. old “toddler in Christ” and you reveal to me that I erroneously thought our Jesus knows that we must learn & grow like a “little child”. Your comments have revealed very clearly to me that it is wrong to take ANY human portrayal as truth. And to me, that would include any and all Biblical helps or aids; reviews, comments, sermons, etc. If you both are the men of God and have the “spiritual knowledge” that you portray yourselves to have, then would you please pray earnestly for me that God would reveal Himself to me in the same way. That is NOT meant to be sarcastic whatsover, it is a genuine plea for Godly wisdom & undertanding. I truly do NOT desire to lean to my own understanding. Everytime I have, I have always fallen flat on my face with humiliation. Praise God, though, He let me know that “MY PRIDE” has to be surrendered. Brothers, please accept my apology and remember me in your prayers. I will stick strictly to the Holy Bible.
And to Sister Nancy,
I appreciate your support and completely understand your human response to want to retaliate but retaliation really is a “fruit of our human pride & ego”. (Believe me, I know….I stand GUILTY). I humbly ask that you, too, will accept my apology for enticing you to respond in the controversy. In my spirit I believe that your intentions are the fruit of attempting to uplift those who are of less fortunate educations and I thank you.
I will leave this forum with the following from the NKJV Bible: [I pray that is not offensive to anyone]
Colossians 2:2-4 (Paul’s prayer for believers)
“That their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, and attaining to all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the knowledge of the mystery of God, both of the Father and of Christ,
in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
Now this I say lest anyone should deceive you with persuasive words”.
It is not by works of righteousness that I do that I am saved but rather by HIS mercy & grace…
Your sister in Christ,
Elsie
Nancy,
You attributed things to me that I never said nor claimed. I have pointed to and continue to point to God’s revelation to us about Himself which is found in the Bible. I’m sorry if I rubbed you the wrong way. Why didn’t Elsie’s post bother you? Was not mine written along the same line of thought?
See, without the Bible, I don’t know if you’re mistaken or if I’m mistaken. That’s why I go to the Bible as the arbiter of truth. We may disagree on our understandings at some places, but let us hash it out at that level. If we don’t, it just becomes a battle of uninterpreted experiences.
And, Nancy, if you really do get it and I’m the one beating a dead horse then why are you all repeating yourselves? In case you haven’t noticed, I am only *responding* so who is beating the dead horse again?
I am no better than you or anyone else. I am but a sinner saved by grace in spite of myself.
Mark
Hi Elsie,
I was responding in kind to show another side or part to the things you were saying. I did not mean that we cannot take any human portrayal as truth. I’m saying that to understand God in our lives is to use the lens of Scripture. For example, 2 Cor. 10:5 [We are] destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and [we are] taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ, (NASB).
Neither of us have to take a position of the extreme either/or which is really a reductio ad absurdum position. This position can be seen when you said:
I wasn’t arguing for that. I was answering you on the same grounds which is in the same manner in which you replied. I’m arguing for a biblical lens.
I got to talk with an unbeliever for a while this morning on the way to work. I gave him a ride as his car was just totaled. He had is own idea of who God is and what God can or can’t do. If left to his own experience as *truth* then he would have just as valid a position as the next person and their *experience*. There would be no real grounding for understanding. I explained a few things from a biblical perspective in our short time. Lord willing, I will get to witness to him some more.
I do appreciate you stopping by.
Mark
If I had just left him to his own experience of what he thought God did or didn’t do
Darrin is correct. I was unkind. I had a bad day as a single mom (my husband is in Kuwait for 8 mos) and I got frustrated and acted on that frustration. I am sorry for stirring up the pot and causing more contention than unity about our Lord. John Mark, I am certain that you are right with the Lord–your faith is admirable and obviously strong.
I was not, however, unfair. I have been reading these posts for a long time and those by John Mark and his conservative brethren more often than not ask those more “liberal” posters to recognize the authority of the Bible, meaning the authority of their own interpretation of the Bible. Even those people with decades of studying and living the scripture are dismissed. It’s condescending and it makes me frustrated. If anyone says they liked The Shack, we get an instant lecture about how we should only take inspiration from the Bible…as if the author hadn’t done so, nor anyone who enjoyed parts of the book.
For the record, I believe the book to be poorly written and sometimes an infantile representation of the Trinity. Other parts moved me greatly and made me really think about my relationship with God. Most people who have written a favorable post about this book had a similar reaction. No one said, “This book should replace the Bible”.
It’s admirable to say, “I don’t like this portrayal of God. I don’t like how the author argued this point. I think the Trinity can’t be explained in human terms. I think the author’s vision is flawed.” It’s not okay to scold those who praise it for any reason, constantly reminding them that their understanding is not good theology. This is the dead horse of which I spoke…
Let’s discuss (instead of lecture about) parts of the book that were especially “good” or “bad”. Let’s argue passionately about our opinions. Let’s use the Bible to back up our arguments, as well as other texts, sermons, etc.(Perhaps we could even graciously acquiesce a point to another person once in a while, i.e. “I see why you think what you do…I don’t agree but I understand why you would think that.”)
Let’s NOT intimate that those who disagree with us do not recognize the authority of the Bible. THAT is unfair.
Hey fellers,
I’m just country boy and ‘minor leaguer’ with this comment blog but just wanted to say that I read the Shack & really enjoyed it. Yeah, it’s fiction but for me it planted a seed in my mind that it just might be possible to really have a personal ‘spiritual relationship’ with God via Jesus. I mean literally! Maybe God ain’t some far far away Being that we have to jump through hoops to reach or study & analyze till we’re blue in the face. Since Mr. Young said that it was initially wrote for his youngens’, I didn’t expect it to be a book in literary competition. I realize most of ya’ll must be college grads & I’m out of my league for sure but God is no respector of persons & I was taught He died for all. God is a Spirit & must be worshipped in Spirit & Truth. Jesus’ death, burial & resurrection has power to reveal Hisself to anyone, save them & keep them though His Word. Yep, I know, He is the Word eg. Holy Bible. I can read the Word in the human realm & not understand but in the Spiritual realm, through Him my spirit can understand.
I’m not too smart but I can tell you this. Ya’ll have certainly contributed a lot of free publicity for this book. I wonder if that was your intent?
Thanks for listening…..& look forward to seein’ ya’ in God’s Kingdom where they’ll be no need for critics.
Happy debating,
Mick
← Previous Comments
Next Comments →
{ 13 trackbacks }