I know that yesterday I am going to eat chocolate chip ice cream. That can’t change. It cannot change. It already happened. I ate the ice cream, and even though that’s not going to change, I had free will to not eat the ice cream. Even though I am telling you today that that I ate the ice cream and that can’t change I still have free will concerning the ice cream. Does this make sense?
The person in my recent post used a similar analogy to describe foreknowledge and election as found in 1 Peter 1:2.
1 Peter 1:1 Greeting Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: (ESV) [emphasis mine]
I will grant that all analogies fall short at some point. Especially, those concerning God. This one actually proves what it’s trying to disprove. Side note. We know that salvation is not like ice cream or any other food. That’s not really my point so let’s stick with the analogy.
Strike 1
The illustration was to point out that just because God has foreknowledge that does not mean we don’t have free-will. I agree up to the point of defining just how free our wills are. Even in choosing a certain food your will is constrained to many things i.e. cost, time and preference to name a few.
Strike 2
Our commenter admits that his decision is fixed. It’s a fact that he can’t change what happened. To equate our looking back with God’s looking forward shows that our will is not as free as presented here. If I admit that I can’t change what happened in the past (God looking forward) then, I cannot claim to have free will to change what happened in the past (God’s future). I.e. I can’t choose to eat vanilla ice cream yesterday instead.
Strike 3
There final claim in this analogy is to explain predestination. God can speak of predestination because He has foreknowledge of what’s already going to happen. This redefines and voids predestination. Predestining is an action not merely a passive knowledge. If we reduced all of God’s actions to passive knowledge we’d have a god who doesn’t do anything. We’d have a god who just sits around knowing things.
Game Over
Yes, according to God the game is over. He knows everything that’s has happened, is happening and is going to happen. This is not our concern though. We aren’t to play God, but to worship and serve Him. Who God is should give us the confidence in trusting He will do what’s right for our lives and all lives. If we try to wrap our heads around God’s providence we just won’t fully understand. Below are five premises about God’s providence that I’ve struggled with over the years. I don’t think any orthodox Christian would disagree.
1. God unequivocally wants all people to be saved. (referring to God’s decretive will not just His revealed will although many may not think in these terms)
2. God gives each person equal measures of grace that they can cooperate with and be saved or resist and be damned.
3. Every single person has the ability to believe by cooperating with God’s measure of grace He’s given them.
4. God is working within His creation to save all people trying to persuade/convince them to believe.
5. God in His omniscience and omnipotence knows what it would take for each person to believe and can maneuver elements in each persons life to so affect them.
So how do we explain how God works again? Besides the Bible, I mean.
For what it’s worth…
Mark
tagged as free will, predestination in Arminianism,calvinism,Gospel,Southern Baptist,theology
About the author
Mark is a Christian, husband and father. He is a businessman attending seminary in the off hours working on his M.Div. preparing for vocational ministry.
{ 40 comments… read them below or add one }
Have you ever considered that God’s foreknowledge might be general rather than specific? An example of general foreknowledge might be that any person who chooses to diligently seek God will be conformed to the image of Christ while specific foreknowledge might be that Mr. So-and-So will be conformed to the image of Christ. By making the distiction between the general and the specific foreknowledge we can accomodate both predestination and free will.
Actually, because God is love and love does not seek its own, God created an alternative to Himself (better known as evil) to give His created beings a valid choice. Even though Satan was able to con Adam and Eve into choosing evil, God’s love is greater than Satan’s determination to destroy the human race. What was accomplished with the death and the resurrection of Jesus Christ opened up access to the life that comes from cleaving to (becoming one with) God. As we begin seeing the absolute love that God has for us, our hearts will respond and we will freely choose God.
Except that Scripture says that God knows the names of those that are his from the foundations of the world.
Let me ask you Patricia, how does one start to see?
Is there a differentiation in the love of God, such that, he loves the Son differently than he does you? Or, is God’s love monolithic and undifferential so that he loves all men the same as the Son?
As James White points out, the forknowledge of God spoken of in Romans is a forknowing, an ongoing action begun in the past with particular individuals. It is the kind of knowing that is likened to sexual intimacy in marriage. Quite different from just knowing facts about the Bride, God knows the Bride. So we must ask, does God love those in hell with the same love forever that he loves those he knows will spend forever with him? If God so loved the world in such a way that all who are in the world are loved without diffentiating, discriminating love, does God love the dog who returns to his own vomit with the same love as he does the sheep who never will turn and follow another? What kind of love is it that punishes in hell forever, anyway? Surely, it cannot be the same love that cherishes his Bride forever, can it? Or, I might ask, can love hate sin? Can love hate righteousness?
Perhaps we can go this way: what possible reason would sin have to love God? From the point of view of sin, there is nothing lovable in God. What then would God find to love in sin seeing that His righeousness finds nothing lovable in sin? Unless God does something to change the nature of sin to righteousness, there would be nothing in man that God should be mindful of him. Yet, he has made him to have dominion over all his creation. But, that certainly is not all men, otherwise, none would be condemned. So just what is it that makes God take mind of some men such that he would assign them a place above the angels and seat them in the throne of God? It cannot be man’s sin. Then God must do something to make man fit for a king, to make his Bride pure. It must both be lovable as righteousness and love righteousness. Another question is, just what does he do and just who gets it done to them so that they would be loved by God and love God? For sin never will. And he will never love sin. Scripture tells us that it is not that we who loved him first, but he first loved us. How so? While we were yet dead in trespass and sin Christ died for us. But if that love was for the love of sin what kind of love is that? Then it must have been a love for the love of God he saw in them. But how did it get there? To the contrary of loving everyone equally and in like manner, it was the love for those he had called his own, just as if they were his Son, a love for those like his Son, born from above and not for those who he did not know.(John 3; John 17; Titus 1:1-4 cf. Rev. 13:8)
Hi Patricia,
I’ve not considered your proposal. I don’t understand how that would work. General knowledge that any person seeks God will be conformed to Christ’s image seems specific. This is speaking of particular people being conformed. I don’t see how Mr. So and So escapes the general foreknowledge. IOW, how does God have general without specific and vice versa?
I’m not sure I grasp the rest of what you are saying. How can you apply and what do you mean by quoting 1 Cor. 13 about love not seeking its own and applying this to God? I have no idea how evil is a valid alternative to God or why you’d say this as you did.
We are born sinners unable to see and understand God’s love. In our natural state we will not freely choose God. Do you believe this? What does God’s grace do for the unregenerate sinner?
Mark
Hi Mike,
I’m not sure why a Calvinist would deny the “us” and “we” that you state. Not only that, but a Calvinist would say as much and still hold to individual election. Election is both corporate and individual. The letters you quote were written to the church which is corporate, yet made up of individuals.
Just as we apply other Scriptures individually we also apply those speaking of election and predestination.
Philippians 1:28b This is a clear sign to them of their destruction, but of your salvation, and that from God. 29 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake,(ESV)
i think we have the idea that the bible is as individually driven as we westerners are. simply put, it’s not. most calvinists, for example, cite romans 8 to support a rigid predestination of individuals. “those whom He foreknew He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son.” but, who are the “ones” He foreknew? individuals? in context, it’s both jews AND gentiles, who have been saved by one Lord and one gospel, a fact that should unite them, not divide them. ch. 1 starts that line of thinking – “for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God unto salvation to all who believe, to the jew first, but also to the gentile.” the “those” in romans 8 are both jews AND gentiles in the church, a plan God foreknew and predestined all along, that is, that He would unite ones saved by faith in Christ.
same thing in ephesians one. “he predestined us . . .” who is the “us?” both jews AND gentiles. that’s why in chps. 2 & 3 paul stresses that God tore down the wall between jews and gentiles and is now building a temple out of them BOTH, a body-temple growing unto the head, which is CHrist. again, that was the predestined plan all along, to unite all believers in Christ.
i won’t go through every passage, but i think to hear the bible we somehow have to at least recognize that we are westerners who have the concept of individuality engrained in our being. we miss the plural language in the bible, the “we” and “us” and “those” and other such language.
that’s where i’m at with it right now. i hope it helps and pray it doesn’t do harm, but it is what it is
good questions, you sound like someone who really wants truth, not someone who has already made up his mind and now wants to make everything support your views. keep it up
Mike,
You said,
I would argue that “most Calvinists” don’t stop reading in chapter 8, but continue onto Romans 9 where Paul specifically argues that the foreknowledge and election spoken about in chapter 8 is directed to the individual.
Thomas,
The place to start in understanding how everything works is what happened before God created anything. At one point, God was all there was, so all there was was light, life, love, and good. Now, I Corinthians 13 tells us that love does not seek its own. Because God is true to Himself, He could not seek His own in His creation, so He had to create an alternative to Himself in order to give any created beings a real choice. To put it in understandable terms, we could say He withdrew from a place, so instead of light, there was darkness; instead of life, death; instead of love, hate; and instead good, evil (Isaiah 45:7).
When God created the angelic realm, every angel had complete freedom of choice and they knew truth. Lucifer chose to look at his beauty and to decide he wanted to be like God so he could rule over his peers. He purposefully let go of God (and in the process, created sin) and went to the place of darkness, death, hate, and evil to set up his kingdom.
Genesis 1:2 tells us that God went to the darkness–to where Satan had set up his kingdom–to create our world. His first words? “Let there be light!” or in other words, “I AM here!” God went on to create good in the place of evil. Of course, Satan deliberately went after the human couple to wipe out all of God’s creation–he pulled the first scam on the human race. Adam and Eve (who had not “sinned” on their own) were innocent victims–they did not understand what was happening–of Satan’s murderous lie. And, thus began the struggle between good and evil.
Satan succeeded in insinuating himself between the human race and God, thus keeping people from the life that God is (Deuteronomy 30:20). Jesus Christ completely destroyed Satan’s power to do this through his death on the cross (Hebrews 2:14). As Jesus said in John 10:10, he came that we might have the life more abundant than the loss, death, and destruction the thief (Satan) brings. Our challenge is to take what Christ accomplished and find the knowledge, understanding, and wisdom (through the new birth, the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and the baptism of fire) to overcome and defeat evil.
One final thought, God does not hold the human race responsible for the deception that has brought destruction into creation. Isaiah 25:6-8 tells of God’s plan to wipe away tears from all faces–God is love and His love is absolute. When people know the truth of God’s love, they will chose Him.
Mark, it’s bedtime for me; I’ll try to get back to the discussion tomorrow. Have a great evening!
Patricia
You mix and match Scripture an philosophical speculation Patricia. God is true to himself, he is also love, but that is not all that there is to it. God from all eternity was Father, Son and Holy Spirit. All the one God and the Son seeks to please the Father, and the Spirit the Son, and both are pleased in the Son. So your premise is false. Love is multifaceted and not all love is alike. In one sense love does seek its own, that is, God seeks his own glory, and that he does in love, for he is love, on the other hand it always seeks to please another, which it does. In God though, it is not out of necessity, for God needs nothing to complete himself, he is self-existing, lacking nothing. And the doctrine of the Trinity over-rules your doctrine of the necessity of God.
Further, Scripture says that God created man in his image. God is not able to choose sin, never was and never will be, that is the Imago Dei. Even if God created an alternative outside himself such that it could be chosen, it is impossible for God for it violates his nature. Likewise, man was created in the image of God, not with the liberty to choose between good and evil but that natural liberty which in the Imago Dei only chooses the good.
Where is this written? You just made this up. The only thing we know about Satan is that Scripture says that he was pure until evil was found in him and that is only speculation. The word found means to have its beginning there, but it does not mean that God put it there from the beginning. Let’s suppose that he did have freewill in a libertarian sense. What motivated him? Where did the temptation come from that would caused him to sin, within or without? If within, how did it get there? If from without, how did it get there? If free-will is the freedom to choose evil, what is righteousness and what can it do and do the two have anything to do with one another? Perhaps Satan did have free-will, and that is why he was evil, hm? Or to restate it, perhaps free-will is the essence of evil, seeing that it can choose evil, where righteousness never could.
All of this:
you have asserted, but you have not shown how that is so. How many creators are there? Scripture declares that:
But nowhere in Scripture is creative powers ever ascibed to the creature. Beside that would be a self-contradiction, logically speaking.
Again you just made this up whole cloth. For one thing God doesn’t go anywhere. He is omnipresent, he does not have a body, and second Scripture says:
It also says he clokes himself in darkness. Interesting then, that the Lord was conceived in the womb of the virgin where it was dark, and she was the most blessed place, and the passages in Genesis have long been understood to use the language of conception. I won’t get to graphic, but I think you’ll understand, if I say that the water is a root word common to all men.
You said:
False again. The word is ‘aher hayah, or, self-being, or being I, or as is generally said, the becoming one, I will be, or simply, I Am, an expression of His eternality and self-existence, not, Yo Homey, this be me!
At this point in creation there are no creatures in either heaven or in earth as far as we can tell. In fact, the heavens are not yet spoken of as being. The only thing we have is the introductory statement. It in fact appears that the heavens were not created until day two. Simply stated, Satan is spoken of as one of the creatures created during the six days, Chapt 3, vs 1, and heaven, the abode of angels is not spoken of at all unless we include it in the heavens of chapter two as being one of those in the introductory statement of verse one which is not a sequential statement but a summary introduction of what is to follow. This happens again in chapter two when speaking of the creation of man: “These are the accountings of the days when…”. If at all, the verse I mentioned before out of Isaiah that describes iniquity in the Satan, if indeed the Satan is Lucifer, a word that doesn’t appear in the text at all, it actually being Helel, the name for the king of Babylon, and if indeed, those names describe the cherub Lucifer and not merely an earthly king, for after all this is a prophecy about the restoration from captivity of the Babylonian dispora, though under the rule of Assyria, the two being used interchangeably, there is still no way of clearly placing that scenario before the creation of creatures in Genesis.
How long was it between the sixth day and the fall? You tell us. You seem to have a source that isn’t found in the texts of the sixty-six books. Yes the proposed conquest of the earth by earthly kings is like that of the one we call Lucifer, or Satan, or the Devil, however, these passages at best are speculation as to the first estate of that creature, or his nature.
Wrong, it never says that, at all. Just because it is darkness, does not make it evil. That it is used as a type doesn’t change its nature. In fact God said that he rested and that he declared the creation, even the darkness, GOOD.
Well you know, I think there was a little bit of a struggle before that. But, in terms of mankind, it is not the Devil who caused the fall of the whole of the rest of the creation. That is part of the curse laid upon Adam by God, and was Adam’s doing.
Yes, he was deceived, a victim, but because of Adam, was the ground cursed. And the struggle you are speaking of wasn’t ever, really, for in that very chapter God declares Satan defeated by the Seed of the woman. So no struggle. In the end what you do is make man his own savior and over throw what the Lord in the Garden declared as finished. Good job. All wrong.
And oh yes he does hold man responsible. That is infact the bruising of the heel, the representative of man who hung on the Cross. Responsibility is inherent in man because he is created in the Imago Dei, the Responsible One. That thing that Adam violated, that sacred trust, is found in Genesis also:
He was responsible from the beginning, and remains responsible forever.
This is almost the only thing that you said that was true. Yes, for sure they will chose what they know. But only if they love it. The question for you is how does that love get into them? And, the problem is that Jesus said that not all are given to know the mystery of the kingdom, as also Isaiah, in chapter six says, a verse Jesus repeated and reminded the disciples, that if God had not opened up their minds to understand, they would have been like all those who did not, who continue to hate him and remain in unbelief. Paul also tells us that God has shed abroad the love of God in our hearts. Surely, not all love God. And it is love that chooses to follow and another’s voice it will not hear.
Thomas,
Thank you.
You said that with more clarity, detail and with much more grace than I had typed out.
grace and peace…
Thomas, if you believe that what I have shared is philosophical speculation, then so be it. All I know is that many years ago I went to God and I told Him that I wanted only two things–to receive my understanding of the Bible from Him and to live what I understand. Throughout the years, I have spent countless hours in my prayer closet with my KJV Bible, a dictionary, and a concordance tearing apart the Bible and working out just what I do believe.
The most important concept I have found is that God is good, God is love, God is light, and God is life. I also found that at one point in eternity God stopped being all in all (that is, being all there is) because I Corinthians 15:28 tells that Jesus will, in the future, put all things under God in order that God may be all in all. We know that evil is a powerful force in this world and that God has nothing to do with evil(James 1:13, 17), yet He created it (in the KJV, “evil” is used in the place of “calamity” in Isaiah 45:7). Then, in Deuteronomy 30:15-20, God challenges Israel–Jesus extended every promise of God to anyone who will believe–to choose life and blessings rather than death and cursings by cleaving to Him because He is our life. Put all those observations together and we can infer that God is the one who created an alternative to Himself. In that alternative is everything that God is not and Satan is the one who rules that kingdom.
You see, in the Garden of Eden, by outright lying to Eve, Satan was able to step between God and the human race. (God already knew what Satan would do and had prepared a plan before He created our world.) That is why there was a veil in the temple, and we really need to remember that all of the Old Testament writers were looking at God through that veil. They wrote what they understood and when Christ walked on the earth, on of his biggest jobs was to correct what they understood. For example, two of the main concepts Christ was teaching were that God is our Father rather than an Almighty Judge and that a person’s faith is measure by how he/she treats other people rather than by following intricate laws.
What I believe is much more than a philosophy–it is my life. I live every day by choosing life and blessings in the name of Jesus. I live every day depending on the love of God expressed through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ which destroyed Satan’s ability to keep humans away from God. I live every day depending on the reality that God is greater than Satan, that good is greater than evil, and that God will work all things to my good. And, I also pray every day that all of us will know and understand the absolute love God has for each and every one of us.
Two final thoughts–when I said Satan created sin, he did it by letting go of God and life in order to rule over his peers (Isaiah 14:13-14). Sin is simply letting go of God and none of us are physically born holding on to God. And, being created in the image of God means that we have the ability to think, to use words, and to create. Look around you; everything apart from the natural world has been designed and created by human beings.
Mark,
Let’s look at it this way–God knows that anyone who will seek Him with his/her whole heart will be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. It doen’t matter who the individual is, God knows what His love will accomplish in the believer’s life. Now, God does not have a list of people of whom He has ordained to come to Him with all other people ordained to go to hell. John 3:16 verifies this–Jesus said “…whosoever will…” which means it is the individual’s choice, not God’s.
As far as evil being the alternative to God, Jesus said that God is the only one who is good (Matthew 19:17). Since evil is the opposite of good, it stands to reason that evil is the alternative to God. If we don’t choose good, guess what we get?
Sin is simply not holding on to God. With one exception, none of us were born holding onto God. The only human being who was born without sin is Jesus Christ because he was conceived through the power of the Holy Spirit and had an inner man that was the righteousness of God. As he lived on this earth, he never let go of God no matter what Satan threw against him. But–and this is big–when he was on the cross, he let go of God when he handed his righteousness (his spirit) to God. At that point he became sin and cried out, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” which is the cry of unbelief. When Jesus died, sin died also and Satan lost his power to keep the human race from cleaving to God.
God’s love will prevail. God is working with the human race to break the power of deception. Jesus said you shall know the truth and the truth will set you free. God is working diligently with all of us to bring us to point where we all will know Him (Hebrews 8:11).
Patricia,
The question of John 3:16 is not that whosoever will believe will be saved. The question is who will believe? Outside the fact that God doesn’t need a list, how do you know He doesn’t have one? Don’t you believe the God knows all who will believe in Jesus?
There might be a bigger issue as I read your comment. Do you believe that Jesus is, was and always was God?
I ask because you said Jesus Christ because he was conceived through the power of the Holy Spirit and had an inner man that was the righteousness of God. And I’m not exactly sure what you mean here.
Thanks.
Jesus Christ was not the son of Man before the foundation of the world. Before the foundation of the world, God knew He was going to send His son to the world and that the way He would do it would be to speak to a virgin (through Gabriel) and when she agreed, to overshadow her through the Holy Spirit thus conceiving God’s son. So, Christ was the son of Man because he received his physical body from Mary and the son of God because he received his inner man–righteousness–from God. Through his righteousness and as a human being, Jesus was able to cleave to God and have the life that is more abundant than evil. However, as a human being, he was fair game for Satan who went after him big time. Jesus overcame Satan until the cross where Christ gave up his righteousness and became sin.
As far as Christ being God, what does that mean anyway? Christ was one with His Father in life, light, good, and love. Whatever the nitty gritty details, they do not change the reality that Jesus Christ destroyed Satan’s ability to keep the human race from cleaving to God and from having the life more abundant than the loss, death, and destruction that Satan brings.
As far as a list is concerned, God is not Santa Claus. The reason He will deal with each individual is to help them understand truth and to help them overcome evil. Read Isaiah 25:6-8 and remember that it is God’s will that all people are saved from Satan’s clutches. God loves the human race so much that He gave His Son to us. God’s love will not fail.
Wrong. Job said he saw God, Isaiah also, Abraham knew him face to face, Moses too. And all the prophets share this commonality, that they were those who were carried along by the Holy Spirit, knew God intimately, whose words were not given to the errors of their understanding but were the very truth of God, for Thus Saith the Lord. And Jesus did not come to correct their testimony, for it was as he said that testimony which testified of Him. That would be impossible in your view. It was the same Christ that was rent when the waters divided and Moses proclaimed behold, yeshua- Jesus. It was the same Jesus who is the Angel of the Lord who spoke with Abraham and appeared to Moses in the bush and the same Jesus who spoke out of the cloud and the same Angel of the Lord who walked ahead of His chosen people in the wilderness. Paul tells us that we all were baptized in that same cloud, those same divided waters, into the one Christ, for there is only one God, one Lord and One baptism. Except that one has His Spirit, she or he, is not his, John says. So, the truth is, the same Gospel was preached to all who would be saved in the OT. What you have done is to take what Scripture says about one thing and assign it universally to everything. The open revelation to the world of the Gospel in the NT is the final revelation, now fully given to all, however, its the same as that which was hidden in Israel, and before that which was hidden in the fathers, all the way back to Abel by which all were saved for it pleased God through the preaching of the Gospel to save some. Jesus testimony to the disciples, though, still means that unless God reveals Christ, the mystery cannot be known. It was not a diffenent Gospel at all. Jesus makes this point clear to Nicodemus when he said, “You are a teacher of Israel and you do not know these thing?” The promise, to those who God reveals hiself, was always open. This is reflected in Isaiah as Jesus said. It is in fact preached in the opening chapters of Genesis, for those who have eyes to see it and ears to hear. Indeed, it was the passover lamb that Abel sacrificed, the same that Abraham found as a substitute, the same which was in time offered by the Father on Calvary.
Let me suggest you do this. Put away your KJV, and your concordances and find a modern translation. Find a sound Reformed church where you can submit to the teaching Elder(s) for instruction and stop concluding what is not taught but sounds good to your understanding. Paul commands that you not go beyond what is written and he was just echoing the words of Christ.
See you do this: you take a word like create and conflate it to be all encompassing. You take two distinct things and bring them together when the should not be and it produces chaotic confusion for you. To bring things into existence is the propriety of God, alone.To grant that to man in the slightest way, or to any other creature, is to exalt the creature to the status of God. We use the word create in a human sense for things that we assemble out of what is, in many diferent ways, and call them new, but Scripture says that there is nothing new under Heaven. Your efforts to remake man with near god like powers and to develope a theology of good and evil, Yin and Yang, dark and light, as you have done, is more akin to gnosticism than Christianity.
Thomas Twitchell’s last blog post..To Paraphrase James Dobson: Yeah, So What, She’s Twenty-One She Has A Right To Pander For Christ’s Sake… Hubba Hubba
So I guess there was no Book of Life written from before the foundations of the World. And even though people like Moses and Abraham called Jesus the Lord God, it doesn’t really matter.
Pat, you have some serious issues with the knowledge of the Truth. I with Mark, do you want to reveal just what group you represent?
Thomas Twitchell’s last blog post..To Paraphrase James Dobson: Yeah, So What, She’s Twenty-One She Has A Right To Pander For Christ’s Sake… Hubba Hubba
Excellent reply Thomas.
“As far as Christ being God, what does that mean anyway?”
Um… it’s the difference between life and death, you better find out right away.
M Burke’s last blog post..Lou Rugg Can’t Read
Thomas,
Believe it or not, I am not representing any group. I am not sure I understand what you mean in your reply. Listen, Christ came to destroy Satan’s ability to stand between God and the human race. Through his death and resurrection, we have the opportunity to be born again (to be made the righteousness of God) and to cleave to God. What God has done for us through Jesus Christ is the main idea of the Bible.
I am not interested in playing a game of spiritual telephone (the game we played in grade school). I have been walking with God for forty years and have looked to Him for knowledge, understanding, and wisdom. He has been faithful to give me the strength and wisdom to walk through many trials and overcome the loss, death, and destruction that the force of evil brings.
Listen, Jesus Christ is the direct representation of God. All that God is manifested in Christ. God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are one–what I mean in the statement you quoted, is I don’t know how the oneness is configured and I am not sure understanding that configuration is all that important. We argue over nuances of details while we lose sight of the most important idea of all–God loves us all and His love is absolute (perfect, complete, and real). Christ had a definite purpose to achieve and he did it. Now, we need to fulfill God’s purpose in our lives.
Patrica-
Above you said: “I have been walking with God for forty years and have looked to Him for knowledge, understanding, and wisdom.”
Maybe you should contemplate Job. He thought as you thought, that he needed to complete God’s purposes and that is why God blesses some and doesn’t others. He was at best confused about who God was even though righteous and blameless. In the end God rebukes him for thinking he was any kind of factor in God’s dealings with man; what does man add to God and what can he take from Him, is the prophet Elihu’s question, which God demonstrates in power. And Job admits, after walking with God for what was probably alot longer than you, that he never knew God, but had only heard about him, until God revealed himself to Job.
The question still stands, you don’t have to be embarassed, how would you characterize the fellowship that you belong to? And label it please. As you follow here and at Brian’s, you know, pretty well, that most of us are Reformed/Calvinistic believers. What are you? Or better, who are you? You post without a link which is about like being anonymous. Is your name even Patricia?
Thomas Twitchell’s last blog post..To Paraphrase James Dobson: Yeah, So What, She’s Twenty-One She Has A Right To Pander For Christ’s Sake… Hubba Hubba
Sorry, I’ll leave.
Patricia,
No one is asking you to leave. We’re just trying to understand where you are coming from. Forget about free will. We’re talking about the very nature of God. About Who God is as He’s revealed in Scripture.
For ease here is the 1689 Baptist Confession with Scriptural proofs concerning Jesus.
Paragraph 2. The Son of God, the second person in the Holy Trinity, being very and eternal God, the brightness of the Father’s glory, of one substance and equal with Him who made the world, who upholds and governs all things He has made, did, when the fullness of time was complete, take upon Him man’s nature, with all the essential properties and common infirmities of it,9 yet without sin;10 being conceived by the Holy Spirit in the womb of the Virgin Mary, the Holy Spirit coming down upon her: and the power of the Most High overshadowing her; and so was made of a woman of the tribe of Judah, of the seed of Abraham and David according to the Scriptures;11 so that two whole, perfect, and distinct natures were inseparably joined together in one person, without conversion, composition, or confusion; which person is very God and very man, yet one Christ, the only mediator between God and man.12
9 John 1:14; Gal. 4;4
10 Rom. 8:3; Heb. 2:14,16,17, 4:15
11 Matt. 1:22, 23
12 Luke 1:27,31,35; Rom. 9:5; 1 Tim. 2:5
Yes, forgive me Patricia. I am not trying to be harsh. This is Mark’s blog and not mine, so I ask his forgiveness too, if I have offended one his guests.
Thomas Twitchell’s last blog post..To Paraphrase James Dobson: Yeah, So What, She’s Twenty-One She Has A Right To Pander For Christ’s Sake… Hubba Hubba
Okay, I’m back–I had to think and pray. First, my name is Patricia and I am 58 years old. My husband and I have seven grown children (and I gave birth to them all). Almost eight years ago, God opened the door for me to teach high school English–the job was offered to me even though I only had a B.S. in elementary education and a substitute teaching certificate. Since that time I have taken the undergraduate English courses I needed, passed six Praxis tests, and earned my master’s degree in curriculum, instruction, and assessment.
I honestly do not belong to any group; in fact with my family and work obligations, I had to carve out time for myself and stopped going to church. My main goal in life is to love God with everything I have and to love my neighbor as myself.
Back in the early ’70′s my Campus Crusade for Christ friends and I used to spend time discussing Calvinism vs. Arminianism. Since that time, that controversy doesn’t have any practical use in my life. I do want to make a statement about the similiarity between Job and myself. Two of Job’s biggest problems were that the only knowledge he had of God was what other people had told him and that he based his faith on what he did rather than on who God is. When I realized that in the mid ’70′s, I went to God and asked Him for knowledge, understanding, and wisdom (I had already started studying the Bible on my own back in 1969). And, I do not base my faith on anything I do; I base it on who God is–light, life, love, and good.
Personally, I believe both Calvinism and Arminianism have missed the whole point of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Christ himself said that he came that we might have the life that is more abundant than the loss, death, and destruction the theif brings (John 10:10). He did that by destroying Satan’s ability to stand between God and the human race. [The reason God was shrouded in darkness is because Satan scammed Adam and Eve--God is light, and in him is no darkness at all (I John 1:5).] In the Garden of Eden, Satan broke the connection between God and the human race, and on the cross, Jesus destroyed Satan (Hebrews 2:14) and created a brand new connection between God and humans. We access that connection through the new birth, the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and the baptism of fire.
One more thought, Elihu had more knowledge and understanding than Job and his three “comforters” combined. Although the young man was operating before Christ destroyed Satan, he did speak some of the most significant words when it comes to understanding why bad things happen to “good” people. In Job 36:7-12, he stated that although God never takes His eyes off of righteous people and that although He will establish them forever, those righteous people may be afflicted. Elihu emphasized that God will minister to those who are afflicted to show them what the problems are–if the sufferers repent, they will overcome their afflictions; if they do not, they will die without knowledge.
In Deuteronomy 30:15-20, God challenges us to cleave to Him because He is our life. My desire is to cleave to God and have the life that Jesus came to bring.
I am going to let Mark address some most of what you’ve said Patricia. I just want to ask some questions and I will do so one at a time.
Your said: “My desire is to cleave to God…”
Where did that desire come from?
Thomas Twitchell’s last blog post..Obama: Killer Of Black Children, Killer of Women
Thomas,
Back in 1978, my husband went through a tremendous physical trial where he almost died from brain abscesses. This trial was a real spiritual battle, and as we sought the Lord, He began to open our eyes to new undersandings. One of the first scriptures He led us to was Deuteronomy 30:15-20 where He challenged the Israelites to choose life and blessings and not death and cursings. Verse 20 has a phrase in it that quickened a desire in me–”cleave to me, for I am thy life.” As the years have passed, my understanding has grown. Hebrews 8:11 talks about the end result of the new covenant being that all will know Him from the greatest to the least. Through Christ, we are given the opportunity to become one with God.
I have set my heart to love and seek God with everything I have–I carry a picture in my mind of me sitting on a couch snuggled between God and Jesus Christ. No matter what I am doing or where I am at I have access to my Papa Father–He is my life.
–Patricia
Patricia,
The verses you have quoted are nestled in the heart of the covenant of the Law. And that book of Hebrews tells us that by that Law no one was blessed. It says that it could not take away sin. Moses song contains this:
“‘Is not this laid up in store with me, sealed up in my treasuries? Vengeance is mine, and recompense, for the time when their foot shall slip; for the day of their calamity is at hand, and their doom comes swiftly.’ For the Lord will vindicate his people and have compassion on his servants, when he sees that their power is gone and there is none remaining, bond or free.”
This is a prophecy predicting that no on would choose life even though it was the only option granted. You see he does not say choose life or death. Rather he commands them to choose life. If you recall the Garden, God did not tempt man by placing before them a choice. He commanded life be chosen and warned of the consequence of disobedience. No Father sets before his child a serpent whenwhat he needs is a loaf of bread. And in this prophecy God promises to break their strength, the strength they believe the have to keep the convenant.
Which then was the right choice that Israel should have made, Patricia? To keep the law or beg for mercy seeing that God had told them that if they chose the to keep the commandments they would turn evil and worship other gods? Moses tells them and Joshua will later confirms, that the people testified against themselves. For the law was added because of transgressions already commited (and that in Adam), and not a way to get clean but as a mark of shame. Indeed, the law was added so that sin might all the more abound. As Paul said, I would not have known sin except that the law said: “You shall not covet.” By the works of the law, no one will be blessed. Jesus tells us that the way to life is death, Patricia. He goes there and we must follow, and if we choose life we will lose it, but if we lay down our lives for his sake, we shall keep it. That was the lesson that the Israelites didn’t learn by saying they would keep the law.
Then what should have the people done? Should they have sought to keep the law or should they have fallen down and begged for mercy? Moses warns them that if they think they are safe because they keep the laws but remained unchanged in their hearts (see Ezekial for the New Covenant) it was a sin. In Jesus’ parable of the sinner and the Pharisee, this idea is repeated. The Pharisee believes he can cleave to God by obediences, wash the outside of the cup. But the sinner, knows better, and begs for mercy because he realizes there is no possible way to do it seeing that he is sinful and everything he touches is made unclean. Even if he cleans the cup, the water is polluted by the unquenchable sin of man.
The question then is do you think by keeping the Law you will be saved? Serioiusly, do you think by your choice you do any good toward God? You have mentioned Elihu and correctly discerned what he was saying, I thought. He assayed Job rightly and said it was fruitless to try and gain the blessing by pleasing God. What does man give him that he should approve, and Jesus said that once you have done all you should, consider yourself unworthy. Even in error, Job was right, “Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him.” But oh what a great error of pride to boast of ones own ways.” Remember how sharply the Lord rebukes Job for this: “Then call thou, and I will answer: or let me speak, and answer thou me.” Or, as Paul centers this truth and divides between the way of the world and the Way, “if only in this life is there hope, we are the most miserable of men.” Or as Jesus said, “The gentiles seek these things…” Or, as God told Baruch, “Do not seek blessings for yourself.” Classical error, to seek blessing on our own, in our own way. We learn then that whatever state we find ourselves in to be content, for that is the providence of God, and his blessing.
I am sorry that my question took explaination, but you seem really confused as to the means of grace which God has provided.
I have many more questions from the previous post, and more since you wrote the last,
I will leave it here for now. But please ponder this, it is Jesus who will never leave nor forsake you. You, like Peter, like all his disciples including his mother, will often deny him. But we can take heart that he has overcome the world for us. And it is the Husband (Jesus) who leaves His home and cleaves to his wife, and not the other way around. The way you have described it, it is you who does what only God can, seek and save the lost.
Thomas Twitchell’s last blog post..Obama: Killer Of Black Children, Killer of Women
Thomas,
Let’s just agree to disagree and leave at that.
Have a blessed week–a week full of life–through Jesus Christ!
–Patricia
I would do that Patricia, but the Scripture does not allow us that luxury. It commands us to speak as oracles of God. Our personal views are not an option. Opinions are what the world deals in, we are to speak the truth in love and not turn our backs and walk away from our responsibility to our brothers, being careful to reconcile all things.
Let me give you a view of my testimony. I was a drugged out schizophenic, paranoid to the point of being afraid to even leave my house. I was studying the occult, and Eastern Religions when the Lord confronted me with my sin. I went from being unable to deal with the public and at times not even able to remember my name, to finishing my degree and successfully raising a family, doing public speaking and leading worhip and bible studies. I was addicted to drugs and alchohol and God cleanly delivered me from that malady. My testimony is quite ugly from that point on and quite complicated inspite of the work that he did. And despite my sin and unfaithfulnesses, he continues to bless. That should suffice and being said, I don’t depend a bit upon it for the knowledge of my salvation. That alone is found in Scripture, confirmed by the Holy Spirit and the history simply follows his will.
God bless you Patricia, but keep your hand from reaching out and touching the ark of God’s grace. It’s a killer.
Hi Patricia,
This is just what we’ve tried talking about. That is, just Who is Jesus Christ? What is a Christian? The Gospel?
A good article that might shine some light on how we understand Who God is as He has revealed Himself in the Bible is: It Does Not Matter What The Bible Means To You.
I think this is the crux of why we are missing each other.
Mark
If God gave people equal measures of grace – the end result would be equal. God does the work completely from beginning to end within us as He reveals Jesus Christ within us at a spiritual level. What happens in our souls from our spiritual salvation does involve activity at a soul level and mind,will,emotion. But what compels our souls is wrought by tthe Spirit in birthing a new spirit in us. That work is 100% by grace. The doctrines of election and reprobation are sound. The answer to unlimited atonement is that time is not the end in this life. All go through the lake of fire and are completely destroyed according to their fallen natures of flesh and soul. Then God recreates all. So God’s Word does not return void. It accomplishes that to which it was sent. God saves some on earth by sheer grace. Otherwise, all would be destroyed as objects of wrath (separation unto destruction) in the lake of fire. But all are recreated anew. The Bible doesn’t say hell is “eternal”. The Bible says punishment is of a time-duration length – then all are recreated. The words for time have been mistranslated. God is 100% Sovereign. All of this struggling over trying to make God fit into this box or the other box to explain why some are not saved is a waste of time. God needn’t have had such mercy as to save any on earth. All would have been destroyed and re-created. But God has had special mercy on some. His plan is to reveal the richness of His mercy in allowing us to fall and sending Jesus to die for us to reclaim us from the fall. This whole exercise is not about “us” and our sin. The whole exercise reveals God and His glory and grace and goodness and power… AND SOVEREIGNTY OVER ALL. A paradigm shift is needed. The men who translate the Bible could not see the greater plan of God so they wrote in words that were intepretation rather than literal translation. Go to the Youngs Literal Translation and see that people are in the lake of fire for “an age” – of time limited duration.
There is no such thing, in the true Bible of the original language, as eternal hell.
Understand that, and you can begin to comprehend the weighty matters of predestination, foreknowledge, and the salvation of the elect by God’s 100% Grace – NOT of their human will or power but of God’s power as a Father to birth new spirits in them through His Word by the power of His Spirit according to His own Sovereign good pleasure.
You people sound like backwards dark ages superstitious children to me. Read the Bible in a literal translation and study systematic theology and see that God is Sovereign – and He doesn’t fail to save all and recreate all purely by HIs own mercy.
How can you not know that and know the heart of God, really, as it is??
Grace.
P.S. Patricia was over your heads, imo. She may not have put into words the doctrines of God’s Sovereignty, election and reprobation in quite the same “way” as you would like – but she NAILED the heart of God by the Spirit over and over and over again.
She would see in a heartbeat that the Bible is mistranslated in those words – the moment she looked them up. And she would know that God saves all in the end.
Why?? Because she has powerful fellowship with the Lord Jesus Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit.
She’d know quickly that she should study these words – and see the truth of God saving all in the end.
The goal of study of the Word is NOT to build boxes to put God into – it is to know His heart with your heart in intimate personal fellowship.
That is what Patricia achieved.
God bless you, Patricia.
(I think you gentleman should have been listening to her heart – not trying to pick her apart according to your ideas of how to be a good Calvinist.)
Former 5 point Calvinist,
Laura Dykstra
(Now 4 points are plenty – the atonement is both unlimited and effectual… and I can clearly see how and why now that I see the ages from the original language – since my KJV was ALL MESSED UP on those words. But somehow, Patricia “picked up on it” via her close fellowship with Jesus and just trusts the life that is in Jesus and knows everything’s gonna be alright. She comes to God as a little child and no wonder He reveals His open Heart to her open heart. God bless.)
Laura,
You say: “The Bible doesn’t say hell is “eternal”. The Bible says punishment is of a time-duration length – then all are recreated. The words for time have been mistranslated.”
I disagree with this and would like to ask a question:
In Matthew 25:46, Jesus speaking of the “Goats” at the great throne judgment:
In the very same verse, speaking of those “sheep”, Christ said:
Does this put a wrinkle on your theory? The same word is used to speak of those who have life eternal and those who have punishment eternal? If you are correct in saying that this “eternal” should be translated “for a while”, then can’t we all expect at some point, regardless of our affiliation with Christ, to cease being?
So we’re supposed to check our brains at the door and drink deep of psycho-emotional babble? You’d better read Ephesians. We are commanded to grow up in knowledge, that is maturing into the image of Christ to have a relationship with him in truth, not in the blackness of darkness of ignorance.
The word that abclay is quoting is aiōnios, it means eternal, or if you would like ages without end.
Don’t be a fool, don’t follow emotional ranting about ignorant relationships without knowledge. The Jesus that you say you know tells His children that the Father seeks those who will worship Him in Spirit and in Truth. He does not worship in weak-minded emotion but according to the Mind of Christ which has been given to only those for whom he died. In the end there will bed those who approach him claiming to have had a relationship with Him and He will dismiss their pleas and condemn them because He did not know them. The point is that He is the sovereign One who gives the relationship as the Knowledge of God which Jesus represents. He is both our doctrine, that is our faith, and our elder brother, both a real person who represents real knowledge about himself, and the knowledge itself.
.-= Thomas Twitchell´s last blog ..Regeneration By The Spirit Preceeds The Preaching Of The Word To The Will =-.
Laura,
I was going to ask a few questions, but ABClay has already asked the right questions. Thomas has also hit on some good issues.
We all have a tendency to put God in a box. That argument become tiresome. The goal of studying Scripture is so we can know God intimately.
Thanks for this site. You are great. Very interesting!
While I agree simple foreknowledge is not adequate, it is not quite for the reason you describe. While it is true “whatever will be, will be,” this is a tautology. “There is a future event which will not occur” is self-contradictory. When you say, “To equate our looking back with God’s looking forward shows that our will is not as free as presented here” it is a non-sequitur. Why does a tautological truth equate with the ability to choose in the first place?
Also, I’m not sure why “strike 1″ is applied, as no argument is made (except for an implicit view of compatibilism, which is, at the least, insufficient to account for behavior and at worst logically incoherent).
Randy, this post is old and I’m trying to remember the full context. Plus, I’m very busy at the moment so I won’t have too much time to interact. My position is not “whatever will be will be.”
You said –
I was answering the person in question on his own grounds.
And
Who said it does?
Strike 1 is applied since the Calvinist position is not that since God has foreknowledge man does not have free-will. And that our wills are not exactly “free” since they are constrained by the things I mentioned such as cost, time, preference, etc.
Thank you Mark. I was unaware of the context, so I humbly apologize for misconstruing what was said!