Word of Faith Vs. Reformed Baptist: A Theological Dialogue

Robert, I tweeted to Ed but did not really follow-up. I can ask further.

Mark,

I was curious if you were able to get a hold of Ed Stetzer.

Robert, it's my fault for reading too quickly. Sorry. I'll have to tweet to Ed and ask him about Calvin being missional.

I, too, appreciate this dialogue. These two men were able to challenge each other and disagree gracefully. The spirit of "winning points for our side" was, thankfully, missing.

Mark,

I know sometimes I do not communicate well but I was trying to make the same point you are in post 11. I was actually saying that I disagreed with those who say that Calvin was not missional.

BTW the person who made that statement was Ed Stetzer at Two Rivers Baptist here in Nashville.He told me he was a 5 pointer but that he he did not believe he,Calvin, was very missional. He maybe has changed his views somewhat ---dont know.

I so appreciated this "dialogue" with Pastor Woods and Pastor Price because they got to the meat of doctrine here.

I do not think Ed Stetzer did that with his so called Calvinism talk nor did Al Mohler and Paige Patterson. They both were kid glove kinda events. I think this was tough but Christ honoring in the end.

Piper and Chan are both reformed and are both Passion regulars but definitely not Emergent.

Robert, are you sure about Calvin and missions? Based on the following quote, Calvin would fit in as missional.

A pastor in Toulouse wrote to the Genevan Consistory: “Our church has grown to the astonishing number of about eight- to nine-thousand souls.”

Calvin didn’t just plant small fledgling churches; he planted mega-churches that in turn planted more churches. It is difficult to fathom the extraordinary success of these Genevan sponsored missionaries. Even in our modern era, such statistics are unheard of.

The French government became so concerned about all these churches being planted that they sent a letter of protest to the Genevan city council. The Genevan city council responded by saying, “What missionaries?”

Genevan missionaries planted churches in other European destinations. Records indicate missionaries also were sent to Italy; the Netherlands, Hungary; Poland, and the free Imperial city-states in the Rhineland. The late Philip Edgcumbe Hughes, one of the few modern scholars aware of this extraordinary achievement, concluded that Calvin’s Geneva was a “school of missions… [and] a dynamic centre of missionary concern and activity.”

Cf. Calvin the Evangelist

Usually I have heard it defined this way. Traditionally Calvinist have not been that missional. Even John Calvin only sent a few missionaries to Brazil! Now we have the New Calvinist like John Piper who have a white hot zeal for missions, ie Let the Nations be Glad, and a Biblical understanding of the Doctrines of Grace.

Having grown up in Dutch New Guinea, now West Papua, Indonesia. I observed plenty of examples where Dutch Calvinist impacted the culture and the Church.Those examples along with English Particular Baptist make me reject this conclusion.

I also realize that the whole Anabaptist vs Particular Baptist "dialogue" plays into the discussion in Southern Baptist Circles. Again I find the whole Founders point to be more convincing historically!

Pastor Woods,

There's not a consensus in defining New Calvinism but the term was used in the subtitle of Collin Hansen's popular book "Young, Restless, Reformed: A Journalist's Journey with the New Calvinists" and also by TIME Magazine in 2009 (http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1884779_1884782_1884760,00.html). Generally, it refers to people such as John Piper, Mark Driscoll, Mark Dever, CJ Mahaney, Al Mohler, and Matt Chandler, and a movement which is Calvinistic, biblically-oriented, and evangelistic. The "New" simply refers to the recent resurgence--especially among the younger generation.

But I only meant to raise that point as a minor issue. As a whole, I thought the exchange was positive and constructive.

Mark, Thanks for having me. ;-)

Blessings, brothers.

Why do we have so many camps. I consider all of these guys fellow workers in Christ. Of course as long as they hold onto orthodox views.

Hi Robert, as I wrote to Saiko above, I'm not really sure how to define New Calvinism. Like you, I too desire a definition which sure would be helpful so I could understand why certain people might get labeled as such.

Piper has been called a New Calvinist and so has Kevin DeYoung and Tullian Tchividjian and other popular Calvinist teachers.

Saiko, I might put some of those in the Passion Conferences in the Emergent camp though I'm not sure how much steam the Emergents have today. Is that movement still going? I am not sure I would consider the Passion folks as New Calvinists since there are non-Calvinists like Beth Moore, for example, who participate. There may be some New Calvinists who participate though.

I would like to know how you are defining New Calvinism. I'm not sure how to define it exactly. Do you have a working definition?

This was excellent.I too appreciated the cordiality of both men. I thought Pastor Woods did an excellent job of presenting the fallacy of the doctrine of libertarian free will.

Just curious how Mark and Adam would define "New Calvinism".Not at all challenging you but just realizing how unclear the category is in my mind.

Robert I Masters

Would you guys consider the Passion Conferences as Emergent or New Calvinism? Just asking for clarity's sake.

Thanks for posting. I listened to the first half of the conversation as I ran errands. Their cordial attitude was refreshing. I did note an odd remark. At the 34 minute mark, Pastor Woods (Reformed view) dismissed the New Calvinists as belonging to the emergent church. Blessings, Mark.

Thanks Bro. for putting this on your site. I pray people watch this with an objective mind and strive to be willing to exercise love, grace and truth when conversing with people they may disagree with.