Strange Fire: ‘And I See God the Father’?

Motivated by the recent disagreements over the Strange Fire ConferenceDan McGhee shared the following video on Facebook. The video is Kim Walker of Jesus Culture Music sharing a testimony of an alleged supernatural vision with Jesus Christ and God the Father.

I’m sharing the video here not to promote it, but to ask – how does a Christian discern whether or not what Walker describes really happened and is of God? For example, Walker claims the following in the video.

And I was in Heaven with Jesus, and I was standing there. And Jesus standing next to me. And I see God the Father and he’s standing at a table. And Jesus is going, “Watch, watch, watch.”

And God the Father is at a table I and see him reach into his heart and rips out a chunk of his heart and it suddenly was like clay. And he puts it on the table and he starts like forming it and all this stuff. And all of a sudden he shapes me.

And you got to remember the question was “What were you thinking when you created me?” So, he’s answering that now. So, it’s me and he’s just looking at it and he’s like all happy and he’s holding me in his hand.  And he gets this, like a, like a jewelry box kind of and puts me in the jewelry box…

How would you test whether or not Walker’s experience is of God?

Here I Blog…

Let's connect!

tagged as , , , , , , , , , in apologetics,Christianity,Church Issues,theology

{ 19 comments… read them below or add one }

1 robsak October 23, 2013 at 12:23 pm

Sounds rather like a way to build up importance and value of self instead of God, but that is just me…

2 MrFunkhouser October 23, 2013 at 12:44 pm

Shame on you Robsak. Any testimony someone gives tends to involve themselves in some way. Just because God speaks to people in different ways than he does you does not remove the validity of it. 
To Mark, I think we have to look at the credibility of the person. If we have no legitimate reason to doubt them, and I don’t have a reason to doubt Kim, we must accept it, and celebrate in what God does. We cannot sit here with our own theology and be like, “Hmm, well, the God that does that doesn’t fit into my box of how I view Christianity, and therefore he would never do that.” God is infinitely bigger than we could ever imagine, and if he wants to take Kim up to heaven and show her things he wants her to see, in the same way as he did John, what business is that of ours to determine if it’s true if what she reports isn’t heresy, a new gospel, or self serving.
Unlike JMA and the cessationists who wallow in self deprecating false humility, Kim, myself, and those who believe in the continuing power of God aren’t interested in rejecting how God sees us (as his children, objects of his affection, his bride, and with the Righteousness of Christ) because we’re too obsessed with what we were (sinners) before God redeemed us. And because of that we celebrate the way God chooses to display his love towards us.

3 JoelAlvarez October 23, 2013 at 1:06 pm

We should def change the gospel of John 6:46 to ” No one has seen the Father except he who is from God AND Kim Walker; has seen the Father.

4 robsak October 23, 2013 at 1:14 pm

Shame on me? God doesn’t take part of Himself to make us. He made creation out of nothing. While we are made in His image (with a conscience, reasoning, and creativity), ONLY Jesus is a direct physical manifestation of God. We are utterly depraved (Romans 3:10-18) and we’re made alive while dead in our sins (Eph. 2: 1-2) that we openly pursued. God points is to the cross where our sin was imputed to Jesus and His perfect life of righteousness is imputed to us (2 Cor. 5:21). These types of stories minimize Jesus and glorify us. Just think about the implications of what she is saying. God thinks it is of utmost importance to show she is a treasure in a box…and that she is made from part of God’s heart. There are some serious implications there that I don’t think she or you have really considered.

5 Mark Lamprecht October 23, 2013 at 2:23 pm

robsak I understand how she comes across to you, but how do we discern her alleged  vision?

6 Mark Lamprecht October 23, 2013 at 2:24 pm

MrFunkhouser I’m not sure I buy into the position if we have no reason to doubt someone then we ought just accept them. Would you give any type of heed to caution? How do we know this was not just a dream she had?

7 Erik October 23, 2013 at 2:34 pm

Bad tree –  bad fruit.
Bethel Church Redding – Jesus Culture

8 Erik October 23, 2013 at 2:43 pm

robsak not just you…..

9 robsak October 23, 2013 at 2:56 pm

Well, the only visions of heaven in the Bible don’t appear as warm, fuzzy moments, but rather those of judgment. And Paul was not allowed to describe the wonders he saw in heaven. I can not see anything here that seems like a comparable vision of God in heaven speaking to a person. It is scary even for NT apostles to be in the presence of God in visions…as a Revelation shows us…

10 robsak October 23, 2013 at 3:00 pm

Plus her account sounds nothing like what the Bible describes in the creation account or throughout the Bible. It is about His glory,not ours. He wasn’t focused on how great and special we are ourselves, but rather how He shows His glory in creating, sustaining, and saving us.

11 MrFunkhouser October 23, 2013 at 3:42 pm

JoelAlvarez Ha. ha. ha. So… should we remove Isaiah 6:1 where Isaiah clearly says, “In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord, high and exalted, seated on a throne; and the train of his robe filled the temple.”? It’s not unheard of for God to appear in a way that we need to get his point across. 
When the Israelites needed guidance in the evening, he appeared as a pillar of fire.
Her point isn’t “Hey look how cool I am! WOOOO!” It’s a message of encouragement to people that reveals the heart of God towards us.

12 MrFunkhouser October 23, 2013 at 3:43 pm

Mark Lamprecht, and the problem with cross posting. = In short, she isn’t coming with new doctrine, she is recounting an experience she had which isn’t unheard of and we have a biblical precedent of.

13 MrFunkhouser October 23, 2013 at 3:48 pm

robsak Have you ever heard of an allegory? Or, have someone use an example to help clarify something? Have you never said, when explaining to a child, “It’s like _______” to help them get the concept, when in reality it’s much more complex? 
You’re being no different than the pharisees who ignored the message of Jesus because they were too caught up on the fact he wasn’t coming as the savior from Rome they wanted him to be. 
Or possibly you’re like a person who heard the parable of the sower and got caught up on the fact that weeds don’t literally choke the sprouts. 
Don’t get caught up in that, weigh what she said, the intent, and the purpose of what happened.

14 LetsGetRealKimWalker October 23, 2013 at 6:01 pm

MrFunkhouser Mark Lamprecht I wont be very eloquent in the way I phrase this. Balderdash. Her testimony is balsphemous. How do I know it is not authentic? It presents a false view of God/ It presents a man centered God. God is God centered. The Bible makes that clear.

15 Matt Privett October 23, 2013 at 10:12 pm

How can we know? Well in the same paragraph in which John tells us to test the spirits to see whether they are from God (1 John 4:1) he also writes “We are from God; he who know God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error” (1 John 4:6). So ultimately we go to the word of God, and what saith the Scriptures?
Well JoelAlvarez has referenced John 6:46 already (written by the same guy as above, by the way). How about John 1:18? “No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God [Jesus] who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.”
So Kim Walker is claiming for herself a privilege given to no one else in the history of humanity… well, except Jesus. I’m going to side with the apostle John on this one. This is the spirit of error.

16 JoelAlvarez October 23, 2013 at 10:40 pm

MrFunkhouser JoelAlvarezHey Mr. Funk thanks for the reply. let me also reply to your response of this” Isaiah 6:1 where Isaiah clearly says, “In the year
that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord, high and exalted, seated on a
throne; and the train of his robe filled the temple.”  My Reponse : Obviously there is parallel between and John 12:41 and Isaiah 6 ..except Isaiah says he saw JESUS( who of coarse is the son)…Let’s check the scriptures and see ”
John 12:36-41 “When Jesus had said these things, he departed and hid himself from them. 37 Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him, 38 so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled:
“Lord, who has believed what he heard from us,
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”
39 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,
40 “He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their heart,
lest they see with their eyes,
and understand with their heart, and turn,
and I would heal them.”
41 Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him
Jesus is not the Father, so no where does scripture says that anyone has seen the Father. I gave you text.
“John 6:46 to ” No one has seen the Father except he who is from God; has seen the Father” Which is consistent with the bible not to what I just want to believe. Unless you are arguing from a Modalist point of view and believe God the Father manifested himself in modes( as father, son and holy spirit)
Do not exalt her vision or dreams above scripture.  She is not divinely inspired, neither are her dreams and visions. 1 Corinthians 4:6 tell us not to go beyond what is written. I am not even a Cessationist but clearly this is why Most criticize and are right to do so when people do exactly what you are doing brother. You are exalting experience above the word of God.  I have heard her testimony and it does not match the God of the scriptures. I am sorry.

17 DavidCandel October 24, 2013 at 2:07 am

We read in scripture that God is good but no where does it say to cast visions. The Word says Jesus is The Lord God with the Holy Spirit. The Word made flesh dwelt among us and the Spirit Divinely reveals truth about Him. We can’t take a made up story and impose God in it. If we find ourselves adding to scripture God takes away our part. Stay in the love of God Jude tells us but also be contending for the restraining against evil in our culture by being saved, born again, following Jesus Christ not visions of someone’s good.

18 Michael Kampff October 31, 2013 at 12:32 pm

Hey Mark. What do you mean by “really happened”? Do you mean, did this woman experience these things? Or do you mean that it’s real in a sense that it would be testable in some way outside of simply relying on this woman’s testimony of her experience? Obviously these things, assuming she truly thinks they happened, occurred in her mind. So the only real question is the former (did this woman experience these things – psychologically) – which I assume is what you meant. I don’t doubt this woman experienced these things in her mind  (which really is the source of all experience anyway – our mind matters far more than our physical surroundings). But that’s not what’s important. What’s important is whether this was a figment of her imagination, something her mind created, or was this an experience that God Himself blessed her with?
Regarding whether the experience was directed by God, first, do you agree that God is capable of, and attempts, communication with His church? Do you ever get thoughts you suspect are from Him? Do your experiences ever confound you to a degree that you can do nothing but accept God’s direct involvement? My experience and the Bible tells me that He is involved in people’s minds, and influences thoughts and actions to some degree, whether we recognize it as Him or not, and to the extent that we allow ourselves to be influenced by His holiness.
Second, do you agree that a person can experience a vision of God without seeing God as he truly is? If God’s image is too much for us mortals to handle, and God wanted to present an image of Himself to us, is it reasonable to expect that He may show us a representation of Himself without portraying His full glory? If that’s possible (as we know all things are to God), and if God loves this woman, and if this woman needed comfort, and if she was truly humble before Him to receive His comfort, why wouldn’t God send her comfort?
Third, do you agree that God would present truth in the manner in which this woman would best understand and receive it? If He is trying to comfort her, it wouldn’t do her any good to experience truth in a manner that she didn’t understand, and that frightened and confused her.
Fourth, do you agree that this message, as she’s communicated it, is crystal clear in its purpose. Yes there’s imagery involved that some may pick apart, but is there any confusion whatsoever about it’s purpose – the central message / truths that this woman experienced? Do you think this woman is confused about the truths she feels she received?
Fifth, the experience brought this woman closer to knowing, experientially (which is the only knowledge that really matters), the nature of God’s *infinite* and *intimate* love for her. Where would such a message come from? If you put the method of communicating truth aside, do you feel there is anything not Biblical about the *truth* she feels she received? Try not to focus on the literal imagery – focus on the truth.
Did she *really* see God? I don’t know – most likely not. Did God communicate with this woman, through an experience in her mind, to bring her more fully into His arms. I don’t know that for sure either, but what an amazing example of what a loving and powerful God He is if He did!!

19 Marcie March 23, 2014 at 2:24 pm

You discern it with fruit. She was freed from the lies of the ‘mistake’ of her birth and validated in her calling as a worshipper who pleases God. Visions are HIGHLY symbolic and nothing in that vision shows disrespect to the Father—only His love and His pleasure in showing her that she was planned in His heart.


Previous post:

Next post: